To think that if you have servants you aren't middle class?

[uruculager]

"Tax breaks for hiring a cleaner could save middle class thousands"

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9073334/Tax-breaks-for-hiring-a-cleaner-could-save-middle-class-thousands.html

Is "middle class" now totally meaningless?

I don't recognise class so can't answer your question.

However, since when has a cleaner been a 'servant'?

If that's the case then even people on benefits have servants.

YABU... Hiring a cleaner or a gardener is not the same as having Downton Abbey-style 'staff'.

servant?
what's your views on nannys/au pairs/childminders etc then?or sending ironing out?

We do not have servants - we outsource some of the non core operational functions :o

YABU for thinking that paying someone to spend a couple of hours cleaning your house every week is the same as 'having servants'. 'Having servants' is more like having a PA, permanent house management staff, gardener, chauffeur and nanny or nannies. That might reasonably be considered upper class.

But a cleaner? Loads of not particularly well-off people in the UK pay for a few hours' cleaning a week. Are you seriously suggesting they're all upper class?

Having a cleaner come for a few hours a week is a long way from "having servants" - I'd only count fulltime staff as "servants" in that sense. Huge numbers of middle-class families have a cleaner, or a gardener, or someone to do the ironing.

No words

but I'm working class! And I used to have a cleaner! I don't fit into the Daily Mail's slightly deranged world view! Head explodes!!

You know what's meaningless in your OP? Your use of the word 'servants'...

And 'middle-class'. Which covers pretty much everyone, apart from the landed aristocracy and those who consider themselves working class.

It's just a ridiculous view. And it's about time we stopped banging on about class, which is an equally ridiculous view.

'Pretty much everyone' is there to encompass the likes of my XMIL. Who considers herself Upper Class, but actually doesn't make the Upper Middle grade (if you absolutely had to grade her).

She is Hyacinth Bucket, come to life.

Nobody has servants anymore. Not even the posh folk

I recall reading in the Guardian that 10% of households employ "domestic staff" (does it worry you to think you have servants?) but all I could find by googling was this statistic that indicated 8% of households employed cleaners:

www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=102791

Obviously that 8% is well represented here.

Yup, the middle classes have cleaners.

The upper classes have servants (oh yes they do, CatinHairnet!).

That's in this country. It varies elsewhere. My dp, for example, is Caribbean (dad was a doctor) and raised with housekeeper, cook, nanny...

Having a cleaner is not the same as having servants so YABU.

aLOSr, although the majority of people who have servants may well be upper class, having servants does not make you upper class.

If I went out tomorrow hired a nanny, a butler, a housekeeper, a ladies maid and a valet I would not become uppper class. (I would become skint, over crowded and possibly divorced)

You cannot become upper class - you are born into it or you are not.

Well theoretically, you have to be aristocracy to be upper class so YABU.

Also remember that class and wealth have nothing to do with one another

Wayne Rooney and Jordan have many staff. Neither will ever be upper class.

I have a cleaner and a gardener. I am on first name terms with both and have never thought of them as servants. My mum reckons I became middle class the moment I bought an Aga.

I think it's a good idea btw. It puts individuals who create employment on the same footing as companies (i.e. salaries of people you employ are tax deductible). We cant keep just relying on enormous multinationals to employ everyone.

YABU - servant is a pejorative term. Having full time domestic staff is not the same as having a cleaner.
I have a cleaner and a driver - they are not servants.

Also, In MN land why is a full time cleaner/housekeeper "a servant" but a full time nanny not?

They have this kind of scheme in Belgium. A colleague was telling me how he's employed a cleaner and a gardener. If it creates jobs, why not?

The only issue I can see comes when a nanny is tax deductible (because you directly employ them) but nursery fees/childminders aren't because there you're buying a share in an existing service.

ps I bet my left butt cheek that Ed Miliband has a cleaner.

None of them are "servants".

Agree with Cogito - yes in Belgium they have the Titres Services cheques. Which cost 7.50 euro and = one hour of domestic help ie cleaning, shopping, ironing. The cost of these is tax deductible - so in effect you pay 5.25 euros.

The Govt actually pays to the agencies 21.40 euros. For the employees, it makes sure they are insured, have their NI paid and tax paid. It is a really good idea - and meant to help working families. It also discourages you from employing people illegally. You can't use them for child care.