To think that if you have servants you aren't middle class?

[uruculager]

"Tax breaks for hiring a cleaner could save middle class thousands"

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9073334/Tax-breaks-for-hiring-a-cleaner-could-save-middle-class-thousands.html

Is "middle class" now totally meaningless?

I've seen servants. I was overseas in a house with servants. I'd sit there and would be able to ask them for a drink. They'd wash my clothes my clothes. They lived on the premises.

I've not seen that in middle class families in UK.

My very upper middle class MIL has a "Lady Who Does". Not sure where that fits in, but hey.

Once again, da capo: there are just three classes, posh, common and pikey. Middle and working class are meaningless because nobody agrees on what they mean. If you're not posh (you're unaware of everyone unlike you) and not pikey (you steal from everyone unlike you) then you're common (you resent everyone unlike you).

i have been a cleaner and had a cleaner. I would not call cleaners servants. The gardener we use earns more than me. It's just a skill you don't have so you employ someone else to do it. When i cleaned, the employers would often talk to me like shit and then speak nicely to me when they found out i had been to university.

My dad is an electrician and in the middle class areas he worked and we lived he got treated like a servant. He probably earned more than they did - Some would often comment on his car and say incredulously 'how can you afford a car better than mine'. There is an attitude that if you work for someone you should be below them in a pecking order. 'How can a manual worker earn more than a white collar worker' type attitude. I have many stories about how awful people were to us - it's very sad.

Oh what a fucking absurd OP. Servants?

I have never hired anyone to do cleaning, ironing or anything else within the home (apart from childminding), so count me out of your 'people with servants are overrepresented here' rubbish. To call people who provide cleaning (or other household, or childcare) services 'servants' is insulting and patronising in the extreme to the person providing the service.

I agree with the point that this works in other countries as childcare is ALSO subsidised - DC seems to be forgetting about this bit. Bearing in mind that in Belgium creches are cheap, school starts from 2.5 and all child care til age 12 is tax deductible, yes it makes sense to get women in the workforce and employ others for domestic tasks. But - it also depends on how many children you have and what kind of job you have. Here, if you had a large family and only earned a basic wage, the tax and child benefit set up means you would be MUCH better off not working at all - at least if your dh earned a reasonable amount.

tinkertitonk love it.

OP - YABU.

Do civil servants count? The ones we all employ?

Do I get a tax reward?

OP, I do resent the inference on serve or servile and all that they encompass.

I have known several people who have a cleaner once or twice a fortnight...none of these people are anything more than middle class...they just work full time jobs and it makes sense to them to have someone pop into their homes once or twice a fortnight to do a thorough clean...
Saves them having to spend their valuable spare time doing it.

Not something I would do....however much I earned.

And cleaners are not servants....

Having paid help is incredibly middle class. The problem is so many poeple now seem to want to think they are middle class, when in actual fact they are working class. It doesn't matter what you call them, as long as you pay them well and treat them with respect

No...not servants!

Often canny businesspeople!
They've seen a gap in the market and gone for it!

We have a cleaner (actually, she's got an assistant, so we've actually got 2 - check me out coming over a bit Lady Grantham), but she's self employed, and employs other cleaners, so she's not my servant as she's not my employee.

I also wouldn't call a nanny a servant, although yo'uve got a better case for them if they are directly employed by the family.

The middle classes, even quite poor members, have always had staff. A maid or two, someone to cook, a "man" to do the heavy lifting. I think the OP has only a very hazy idea about class. Its not poor=working class, rich=upper class.

I don't think they are servants. They are employees. or self employed. whichever.

Servant is not about someone employed to do a job for you, it is more a description of the relationship between you, imo. Back in the old days when the big houses employed the young girls and made them wear uniforms and curtsey and use the back staircase, these people had servants. The servants were considered lesser human beings, forced to show 'respect', sometimes hit...

Now you may employ a cleaner, but they'll call you by your first name, you may have coffee and a natter and it is much more a relationship of equals. They aren't servants.

I don't have servants, but I do have a cleaner and the fees are tax deductible here in France. I think it's a brilliant idea, it encourages people to hire cleaners and nannies officially, so they also get health insurance, pension and unemployment insurance. win-win.

"The idea would be modelled on a successful scheme operating in Sweden which has caught the eye of the Prime Minister."

I'd like to catch the eye of the Prime Minister on a sharp stick.

I guess when I was a child we would have counted as lower middle class but we didn't have any "help" (unless you count the cleaner who came when my mum had surgery and wasn't allowed to - total of 6 months) Dh counts himself as working class.

I really have no idea what we are class wise now - Tbh all I care about is can we make ends meet. We both have a pension (just about) - does that count? But no cleaner and no private schools and no foreign holidays!

I think the world has moved on think:

au-pairs
nannies
corporate butlers
corporate drivers
personal organisers and shoppers
cleaning companies and ladies
laundry companies and ladies
internet shopping for groceries
childminders
serviced offices
car washing at the car park/supermarket

etc., etc.

Lots of people who have spare cash use those services but only a teeny tiny few have live in servants/help nowadays.

I have no idea what class I am. I have a cleaner as I work full time, and don't like cleaning much. She is referred to as "Monika", she does a fantastic job - my house is (now) spotless. We pay over the going rate and we give her extra money at Xmas and holiday time in the hope that she likes coming here to work and doesn't feel that we take the piss.

@ limitedperiodonly. You're not the only one who'd like to do that!

aldiwhore Thought about the nanny thing. I'm now wondering if in "the grand houses" the nanny traditionally was not considered a servant as she quite often came from a similar social background to the employer - I'm thinking Tiggy Legge-Bourke/ Norland nannies here. Maybe this has sort of then filtered down to now, so nannies are set apart.

Interestingly, in Asia, where there is little social welfare safety net, if you can afford to have staff (helper, driver etc) and don't then it's a bit shameful- like you're not fulfilling your social obligations. All the other helpers will talk about you. In the UK, there seems to be a weird pride in doing your hoovering in your 1 spare hour a day even if you earn £80k.

Ooh - I just reread my post and I sound positively poncey! In fact, I am just grateful for Monika. We cannot afford her really, but I came home today and my bathroom is sparkly.

Wow, I guess I underestimated how ashamed Mumsnetters are about employing people to do domestic work for them. Do you really feel better about making someone clean your toilet or wash your dirty knickers if you call them "staff" rather than servants?