To think that if you have servants you aren't middle class?

[uruculager]

"Tax breaks for hiring a cleaner could save middle class thousands"

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9073334/Tax-breaks-for-hiring-a-cleaner-could-save-middle-class-thousands.html

Is "middle class" now totally meaningless?

I don't think anyone calls their domestic employees servants anymore, not even people like my landlord (who is a duke). They are staff.

But congratulations on starting a perfect storm of a mn thread - class, taxation, domestic chores, working mothers, David Cameron, the daily mail and even a smidgen of benefits. Good show.

It's all nonsense.
I employ a part-time nanny. Am I rich or upper class??? Noooo. I am a struggling lone parent and the reason why I use a nanny rather than other form of child care is that I work long hours and have no other support, so otherwise I would have to give up my job.

I agree with others, I don't see why I should be ashamed of employing a nanny. Quite apart from the fact that it is giving employment to someone, it means I go to work, generate income there, which keeps other people employed. I also dont feel ashamed of having the gardener, cleaner or window cleaner. I don't employ them and they offer a service with a price. They are business people as far as I am concerned and it means that the time we have with our children is proper quality time rather than chores.

sausage, not really , i'm just looking after my own interests because happy nanny = happy children = happy me. It's really not that difficult to treat people like you would like to be treated and I genuinely think that this is the difference between "servant" and "employee".

I am a cleaner for a very wealthy middle class family, my dh is the full-time gardener. Before we came here (live in a very nice tied cottage and let our own house out), we had our own successful landscape gardening business. We would not have come here had it not been in our favour - so whilst technically he could be called a servant by some of you we would not be here if he was treated like one.

However, I do 6 hours a week cleaning for them for cash in hand. Not once in any 3 hour stint have I been offered a cup of tea or coffee, the radio was taken out of where I do the ironing so no fun there, so yes, I feel not too far up the ranks from a servant. Also, they will go out and not say they are going, so I don't know if to wait for them or just leave, basic common courtesy to me and all ways of making me feel inferior. But, it is convenient, flexible and if the kids are sick I don't go. So, if you have a cleaner please make sure she doesn't feel like you're doing her a big favour, and the odd compliment on her work will go a long way.

Back to the point - I can't imagine a tax break would make any difference to people in this sort of class at all, its more the hastle of having to do payroll, holidays, sick pay etc. and the fact it is difficult to sack somebody if you have a change of situation. I would love to get a 'proper' job but lack of any childcare is the problem in rural areas like this, let alone affordable childcare.

Absolutely. The only reason to be ashamed of having domestic help is when you treat them badly - exploiting them and/or paying them cash-in-hand because they are not strong enough not to let you get away with it.

IME many cleaners in France actually ask to be paid cash in hand rather than via official means. I have had to argue quite vigorously twice to convince people to agree to being declared as working in my home.

If they have not been in the country all their adult lives, they think they'll not qualify for a state pension anyway because they won't be able to pay sufficient contributions before retiring, so they'd rather not go through the whole rigmarole and pay tax on their earnings when they believe (wrongly or rightly) that they won't benefit from it on that level.

They also know that cash in hand suits many employers better. I pay my cleaner 66e/mth. Over and above that I pay 54e/mth in social security, etc. for her. The tax break does not make it worth it, and it was cut in NS's latest budget. My cleaner comes once a fortnight because I can't afford to pay her weekly on my current salary. I know that on the weeks she's not here, she cleans for someone else who pays her cash in hand. In fact, the only 2 people she cleans for who do declare her and me and a colleague, whom she clearly views as weirdo lefties.

Helennn - my grandparents had staff in tied cottages - not servants, farm hands, etc., and the wives also helped on the farm and around the house. My grandmother would always offer tea or invite them to help themselves and if she had been going out would have said so, not least to ensure if that meant the house was empty, that the cleaner knew she had to lock up.

I have had three cleaners and they have stayed with me for 5, 12 and 9 years respectively so I think they must feel pretty well treated.

Actually, paying cash is only exploitative if the terms are such that the IR would deem the cleaner/gardener etc to be your employee (which is pretty unusual in the UK- in most cases you are just buying a service for a few hours a week). If the person just does a few hours a week for you, and has several other clients then they are self-employed and are responsible for registering as such and paying their own tax and NI stamp. The only moral question in paying cash is whether you wish to facilitate tax evasion

That's right but if you're paying a cleaner/gardener 7 ponds per hour you should get suspicious!

Why would paying £7.00 ph make one suspicious? I pay mine £9.50 which is the going rate here - is that suspicious?

YABU for calling cleaners servants

That is all

married £9.50ph? Wow that's a good deal.

What is left of £7 after ni and all has neen paid? Not a lot.

We have a cleaner and are certainly not 'upper class' - and she isn't a 'servant' either . She's just doing a job, same as me and DP.

We pay her in cash as well, I thought that was normal? How else would we pay her?

But if the person works less than 16 hours cleaning they will still be eligible for some benefits and they will not have reached the tax threshold.

£9.50 isn't that great a deal for the cleaner here in zone 2 London and I am expecting to put it up to £10.00 in the very near future. Unless of course you thought I was getting her cheap Novice.

Oh I got confused and thought that's what your gardener charges you. Our gardener is £50 for 3 hours and our cleaner is £10ph.

I pay £12 oop North......I think £10 in London must be low?

Yeah, I dont know the ins and outs of the benefit system so it may be that a lot of people aren't doing anything illegal. All I'm saying is that the onus is on them to declare it if they're self-employed, but on you to make the deductions and pay the employer's stamp if you qualify as their employer.

I used to have a cleaner who would insist on cheques. I dont know why. I suspected maybe her husband would take the money from her if it was cash, but that's pure speculation

I only get £8ph and have done for 2 years, another reason to be bit fed up me thinks. They set the hourly rate in the first place, do you think it is up to me to ask for a pay-rise or morally up to them to offer it?