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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be in tears at Protecting Our Children Tonight?

95 replies

Bingdweller · 06/02/2012 22:10

Just so heartbreaking. So many hopes, so many chances given and the mum just couldn't do it. The social worker (Annie) was amazing and just so devastated by the case. In tears as I write and will think of this and families like these for a long time to come. Am so grateful for my own stable upbringing, happy marriage and two beautiful DC.

OP posts:
Birdsgottafly · 06/02/2012 23:38

I said on the other thread to last weeks programme, these are snapshots. Detail isn't gone into as to what services, alcohol, MH etc that the parents are asked to attend.

There would have been a full pre birth plan drawn up which would have a list of interventions that the parents had to follow, otherwise the court order to not allow Marva to leave the hospital with the baby. It is obtained before birth and finalised when SS are contacted by a MW to say that the baby is born.

You have to remember that they have had years of involvedment, shaun has nine children, all removed. Marva three,so the parenting assessment/ background/Health reports etc will have been done.

Unfortunately Marva probably will be pregnant again to Shaun.

It is a dilemma that autonomy should be a human right yet a parent has to follow a plan that SW's struggle with. The best is done so that practice doesn't become overly oppressive.

somedayillbesaturdaynite · 06/02/2012 23:40

i thought that too, lisa. maybe sw thought that by passing those messages on it would stop Marva seeking Shaun out to find out the answers herself, thus possible preventing a relapse.

GlitterySkulls · 06/02/2012 23:44

how many kids have these two had taken off them? is it 4 including or excluding the one marva's pregnant with?

Birdsgottafly · 06/02/2012 23:47

Four including the baby boy on tonights programme. Shaun has had nine children.

GlitterySkulls · 06/02/2012 23:49

jeezo, that's sad :(

all those poor kids.

spenditwisely · 07/02/2012 00:01

I don't think Marva was interested in Shaun other than as a provider of alcohol and company. It is a very difficult balance to strike, as Birds says, but these 'parents' are vulnerable adults themselves and need to be treated as such.

Marva was very lively and animated with the foster carer, I do think that a social worker's job would be easier if they had more of a befriending role.

Also there seemed to be little connection between the adults SWs and Annie.

I do worry for adults with LDs ending up on this rollercoaster of hope and despair as they have one child after another taken away. It would have been fairer to allow Marva remain with the baby in the care of the foster carer.

Sanesometimes1 · 07/02/2012 00:06

Watched it and just felt so so sad, these people clearly could not look after themselves let alone a baby, why oh why oh why was she not persuaded to have a contraceptive implant ? I think everything possible was done to help her, just thank god that the child was "saved".

CalamityKate · 07/02/2012 00:10

I completely agree, Sanesometimes. Her and Shaun are going to carry on and on and on having babies. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but what the hell - why can't having the implant/jab be incentivised in some way? Surely it's better than them popping babies out once a year?

Birdsgottafly · 07/02/2012 00:13

Spendit- the problem was that whilst Marva was living with the baby in the foster carers the foster carer could not stop her from leaving the house, which would have put the baby at risk. Whilst Marva lived with the child she held PR, this is the problemwith community care of any sort, having a lockin situation, goes against Human Rights.

To allow her to remain would have been an accident waiting to happen.

You beg people in their situation to use contraception, but they refuse. Shaun could opt for a vasectomy.

IneedAbetterNicknameIn2012 · 07/02/2012 00:15

:( The whole pregramme was so sad. I missed last weeks, and can't get iplayer for some reason.

I know 2 girls who have had children removed, both have gone on to have more children, all of whom have also been removed :( It's so sad to see, no matter what we tell them, they are convinced that eventually SS will give up and let them keep one of their babies

M0naLisa · 07/02/2012 00:24

Me and DH have just watched it and it was very sad to watch :(
The thing is there are plenty more cases like this where SW are not involved. That baby boy was saved by the SW, he hadnt being fed by the mother whilst she was out on a bender. Its a shame it ended the way it did, she was doing so well on her own with the foster carer too so was sad to see at the end that she had gone back to him and let down her son. :(

workedoutforthebest · 07/02/2012 01:03

...because calamitykate you cannot force a woman to not have a baby, anymore than you can force a woman to have a baby. My late mother (whom I never met) had seven children. We were all placed in care. I still have a copy of a doctor's letter, written in the early eighties to another professional, saying that my mother should not carry on having children as she is passing on this genetic illness to all of us but isn't caring for us. I do not know why my mother carried on having kids. I do not know why she could not look after us. All I know is that she was not loved as a child and when you have no idea what the true meaning of love is, you go for the next best thing....sex.

porcamiseria · 07/02/2012 08:07

No tears from me

Just relief, as I always had doubts that Marva would be able to manage. Both Marva and Shaun are clearly products of a terrible upbringing, and I am pleased they did not get chance to fxxk up another kids life.

social worker was a bit too optimistic, bless her

I know I will get flamed, but after this hope Marva takes some hard core contraception

BarbarianMum · 07/02/2012 08:39

I thought it was desperately sad. I have no qualms over the decisions made for the little boy but it does seem wrong (on a societal level, not blaming the child's social workers) that the moment no baby is involved all support to the parents goes. You can't make people accept help/support I know but experience of addiction within my own family has shown me how very little support there is out there for adults.

Marva attempted suicide twice fgs, wouldn't that call for urgent psychiatric intervention? Actually, no, it often doesn't - but it should.

JosieZ · 07/02/2012 08:43

Everyone is sorry for Marva and Shaun as they are products of terrible upbringing but we don't have much evidence for that.

Perhaps they had a mother like Marva who took a Benzo overdose and excess alcohol when they were in the womb. The result is someone who cannot function normally in society due to effects on brain. Not that that doesn't deserve sympathy but really they should be forced to live under supervision for their sakes as much as the rest of society instead we support the fecklessness of their lives. Human rights sometimes does people few favours imo.

Also much sympathy here for Marva -perhaps she should have been allowed to keep the baby - imo she was a zombie and showed no emotions the whole programme. Possibly spaced out due to years of drug and acohol abuse. I hoped she would change and love the baby but thinking about it now there wasn't much hope.

Birdsgottafly · 07/02/2012 08:47

If they had of sectioned Marva she wouldn't have had the chance that she did with her baby. Shaun could not have been stopped from visiting her. It wouldn't have changed the outcome for the baby being adopted.

The MH Act states that treatment in hospital has to be available that wouldn't be in the community, for sectioning to continue. Marva wouldn't have received any medication because she ws pregnant, but the stress of being sectioned could have caused a still birth, so it is once again weighing up risk.

If the police had not of gone to remove Marva and the baby from Shaun's flat at 3am, the outcome could have been the death of the baby by the next day. Or brain damage through dehydration, baby's cannot go that long without fluids without being disabled.

BarbarianMum · 07/02/2012 08:48

Josie I thought that she (actually both of them) did love the baby. The point being that love is not nearly enough - you have to be able to control your own behaviour enough to care for your child and keep them safe. And she/they couldn't. Sad

Birdsgottafly · 07/02/2012 08:53

Josie- Marva first tried to commit suicide at 10, so something was going badly wrong. Shaun talks about him self harming, so again there has been major problems in his life.

What we have at the moment are people having babies who are very damaged, some because we did not have the threasholds that we do now in CP and they should never have been left in the care of their family. The services still are not available and judging by many threads across MN, posters don't care that there are lots of Shaun's and Marva's for who services are being cut.

purplecupcake · 07/02/2012 08:59

The whole pregramme was so sad. I missed last weeks, and can't get iplayer for some reason.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01bpjf7/Protecting_Our_Children_Damned_If_They_Do_Damned_If_They_Dont/ for anyone who missed last weeks

Rosa · 07/02/2012 09:14

So glad a thread was started - I watched in complete tension and I hoped that everything would work out. However I honestly think we just saw a minor part of it , as had been said. BUt its about time that the Ss were seen in a positive light as they just get slated most of the time

mrsscoob · 07/02/2012 09:40

At the beginning when the social worker went to the house with two security guards and that dog was barking, the house was filthy, they had no furniture, booze and tablets everywhere, you could just tell there is no way a baby should be in that house for even a minute, let alone be brought up there.

Marva was given an amazing opportunity to keep her baby, its a shame for her that she didn't take it, but not for the baby. They totally did the right thing for the baby having him adopted. The parents couldn't even make it to the conctact visits, let alone look after him full time.

spenditwisely · 07/02/2012 10:26

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks the adults should have been given more support. The SW continually told them to 'stop drinking' and 'be strong' but it should have been 'I've booked you onto a program' and 'I'll take you to see the CBT counsellor' or 'have you tried Mumsnet for advice?'.

I'm only glad that the baby was removed because it's clear that our big society is completely ineffective in helping vulnerable adults to change their lives. At least we won't end up with another vulnerable life going out and repeating the pattern.

However as a parent of a disabled daughter (she watched it too Sad) there is something very wrong with a society that writes people off in this passive and ineffective way. You should never say never about anyone, regardless of their apparent capabilities.

Birdsgottafly · 07/02/2012 10:45

It was a programme on CP,so the services offered to the adults were not shown. If you remember there have ben the tail end of meetings shown. The other people around the table would have been from adult services.

If someone leads such a chaotic life as they did, they very often will not engage with services. Shaun did not even keep his first contact appointment with the baby.

Family support counts for a lot and makes the difference between success and failure. Marva and Shaun's baby may never have had support off the two of them and if he had noadditionalneeds may have ended upcaring for them, which i have seen from a very young age.

I have seen three year old who consider themselves responsible for their parents mental state.There are things that you cannot inflict on a child that is not easy to evidence.

Birdsgottafly · 07/02/2012 10:47

Shaun has a massive influence on Marva and could easily get her to use contraception, as said, he has issues but is fully functioning.

porcamiseria · 07/02/2012 10:49

"I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks the adults should have been given more support.

there is a limit to what we can do, and there is a limit to how many resources there are. we do not live in an ideal world. Comments like this frustrate me a bit, as they just assume a limitless budget and limitless time

some people cannot be helped unfortunately, its shit, but life is shit

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