to think that most shops use vanity sizing now, and a 10 is really an old 14

[GetOrfMoiiLand]

Are there any shops which use what I would call 'old' sizes.

I remember when a 10 was really small. When I was in my teens and a lot smaller than now, I was a 12 at most. I am now a 10.

My gran (on clearing out her wardrobe) was always a size 12-14 - on trying on some jackets from the 80s which were a 14 they were very tight.

Hardly any shops stocked 8s, and they were tiny. Now every shop stocks 6's, and they are not really that small. My local Asda stocks clothes in a 4.

oh come on - it's not really that offensive, is it? Due to near-obsessive exercise regime I'm pretty skinny myself (after years of being medium to chubby) and it doesn't bother me. I think it's natural that people want to kick against the idea that thin automatically = beautiful. If you flick through any magazine you'll see hundreds of women who have your bodyshape; if you buy crap like "Heat" you'll also see the women that don't with big red rings around anything that curves. Even your post is a faint echo of those Daily Mail articles about celebrities who snap back into shape in record time after pushing a baby out.

Rise above it MixedBerries
[but you-are-right-to-be-angry icon]

It's offensive Emma in that it is seen as OK by some people to insult thin(ner) women. But yet the same group would be up in arms if a flippant remark was made about them stuffing too many cream cakes in their face to fit into jeans... Works both ways?

It's not that much of an insult, is it? "Body doesn't know how to store a cream cake". I can think of worse! I didn't infer from it that thin women have eating disorders, but I could be wrong I guess - if anything, I assumed it meant that the poster thought thin women could eat what they wanted and not put weight on.

(shrugs)
I've heard worse insults, of course.
What I personally find slightly objectionable is what I stated before - it is seen as OK by some to fling an insult at a thin woman - "your body doesn't know how to store a cream cake" - but then become all indignant about being told to stop stuffing their own faces.

[disclaimer: I haven't thrown either insult - these are examples)

[vows now to step away from thread as discussion veers violently off course]

I am sure that the measurements have changed, but does it really matter if a 10 today is different to a 10 of 30 or 40 years ago?

I am a 10 in most shops, 8 at others and my BMI is 22. If the clothes sizes all changed to a 14 tomorrow, I wouldn't care. Consistency across shops and shops not doing vanity sizing (by today's measurements) would be nice. I know what you mean though because I don't think I "should" be a 10 because my perception of what a 10 means is smaller than I am, but I am happy(ish) with my size.

It does matter, you are much less likely to do something about your weight if all around you people are saying 'but you are a 10/12/whatever, all this size zero nonsense' if at a current 10 or 12 you are actually overweight

apart from anything else it is annoying

but dress size has always been annoying confusing unpredictable and pointless

like the whole of the rest of LIFE

ugh

I'm overweight on all the indicators, BMI, fat percentage, doctor has told me etc but I fit into a 10 so everyone else tells me I'm fine and don't need to lose any weight.

I agree with MitchierInge on this. Vanity sizing does matter

I'm as old as them thar hills, and remember being a (tall) size 12 when I was 12. Back then, size 12 = 24" waist and was a perfectly respectable size for a tall teen. Now, I am still a size 12, but believe me my waist isn't 24" and I reckon I am easily two sizes heavier. I would image that these days, a 12 year old would be considered overweight at size 12.

Quite agree. I would say at least a dress size - maybe a size and a half. I am trying to guard against being complacent by using the 'special jeans'. I shall explain...these are a pair of fitted sze 12 jeans that I bought in 1992 (when I was 21) and I still own. I don't wear them out anywhere as I now hate the cut, but I try them on a couple of times a month. If I can slip into them easily then all is well....if I struggle to do the zip up, then I need to cut down my food intake. Needless to say, I am now a 10 in virtually every high street store - and in M and S and Gap, 10s are a tad big. But I can't fool myself - I may have stayed the same size, which is no bad thing in itself, but I haven't actually shrunk. The clothes have grown!

It matters because people who have perfect BMIs can often fit into a size four or six now, and are regarded as unnaturally thin by a large proportion of the population.

Marilyn Monroe was an 'old money' size 16 (if she was a size 16 at all). I reckon this would be a modern size 10.

Exactly, but I have come across so many (including my dad) saying that she was a size 16, and they mean a modern 16.

Studio claimed Marilyn Monroe's measurements were 37-23-36. Dressmaker claimed 35-22-35. She was 5 feet, 5 1/2 inches tall.

She was never a size 16

It's one of those urban myths

didn't some UK journalist try on Marilyn's costumes and decide they were a sort of 8, maybe 10 at most? They were obviously made to measure anyway but nothing like a size 16

It affects children's clothes too, my legs are annoyingly not quite 29" (despite being average height :() and I fit far too easily into children's jeans and there is no way any child should have a bottom the size of mine!

You can tell just from photos of her that she wasn't the wobbly bobbly 16 of today*

• I am 5'5", a 16, and yes, wobbly bobbly!

I haven't bought any nice clothes for a few years (busy being pg) but had to find something formal recently. A few years ago I was size 10 maybe 8. I haven't lost weight (and now have a wobbly mum tum) but I could find nothing to fit me. All the size 8s were too big.

In East I tried a skirt (8) that just hung off my hips, assisstant tried to convince me that it did fit and then said 'Do you eat enough?' I was stunned - she wouldn't (I hope) have thought it was okay to say to a heavy person 'Do you eat too much' or 'do you exercise'.

I'm small but not skinny, plenty of wobbly bits and sausagey thighs. I do wonder what genuinely tiny women find to wear.

Top shop sizes are actually pretty standard I think....I've always found them to be consistent.

I agree - Topshop are pretty consistent, but not as consistent as designer clothes, which stick by the old measurements I reckon (which can be rather depressing). Gap and M&S are HUGE. In Gap, I'm always S/XS for skirts and tops, which I'm not in reality. M&S, I'm around 8/10. Topshop 10/12 depending on what it is. Big shock when I got my wedding dress and they said I was between a 12 and a 14.

Interesting thread. A number of people have suggested women's clothes should be sized in inches or centimetres like men's clothes. This sounds sensible, but ... men's clothes are not immume to this!

Since my late teens I've taken a 32" waist in jeans. Over 20 years later I still do - in fact recently I've found I've needed a 31" or even 30". A while back I found a pair of old 32" Levi 501s from the late 80s. I got them on, but they were bloody tight!

I don't know whether it's a deliberate policy to flatter, or whether it is just some kind of adjustment to the average. As the population gets bigger, the "average size" (however measured) gets bigger.

EmmaBemma, there certainly are worse insults but it's insulting all the same. What I'm rallying against is that it seems, by many people, to be ok to say things like "You're such a skinny cow. I bet you just eat leaves" to a thin person. (Many similar things have been said over the years). I'd never dream of saying to a fat person "Wow, you're such a fat cow. I bet you just eat lard all day". Nor is it fair to assume that someone's a "Daily Mail story" just because they've lost weight after pregnancy. As Pennybubbly said. It works both ways. Is it too much to ask that we just appreciate that people have different bodies and not insult each other over it?

I hate it when people comment on my weight, it makes me really self conscious and I have had many "skinny cow" comments. Even if its not meant nasty it still hurts. I hate parties with a buffet or going out for a meal as there is always some comment amount the food of I put my plate not being enough to fill a mouse or whatever. If I get defensive about its assumed Im annorexic. I wear baggy clothes most of the time as Im fed up of comments about my shape.

I have been a size 8-10 most of my life but over the last few months I have started losing more weight, doctors are doing tests etc but some of the things so called family/friends have called me are awful, they say they are joking but still. I would never dream of commenting on somebody elses diet or shape, even in jest, as its not nice when its done to me.

I think they adjust the sizes so that the majority of women are always a 12 or 14, so today's 12s and 14s are the 16s and 18s of 25 years ago.