To wonder why "Ms" seems to mean more than the opposite of "Mr"?

[mamhaf]

I've kept my maiden names, so I'm Ms Mamhaf - haven't been a Miss for many years and Mrs Mamhaf would be my mother.

So, why would the shop assistant filling in a storecard application for me say: "you're separated then?" after I'd given her my title as Ms? (marital status was another box for her to tick)

And then give me a quizzical look when I answered, "no, married"?

According to my mother, "Ms" is for lesbians, divorcees and bitter single women who haven't been able to find anyone to marry them.

Does that clarify things?

It is only in the UK that I ever even heard the bizarre notion that Ms means divorced or separated! Please get with it people. As many have pointed out, it is simply the female equivalent of Mr. i.e. my marital status is not relevant.

I don't think of it as trying to make a point about anything, or trying to get angry and say 'my marital status is none of your business.' No, no, no! It really does simply mean it is not relevant to this situation whether I am married or not - just as is the case with the men I work alongside.

I have always used Ms at work, both when I was single and since I've been married. Please stop seeing Ms as anyone trying to make a point about anything at all. This is not the 1950s!

YANBU to wonder

Am I the first person in 70-odd posts to actually answer with YABU or YANBU?

It's because historically women had to be labelled as either unmarried or married, and some people are old-fashioned and think that if you choose to be labelled as neither then you must be trying to hide something.

I use Dr (maiden name) both at work and at home. It is my name, alway has been and always will be. DH is fine with this (the dc have his surname). This is considered normal in the scientific environment in which we both work.

I get really pissed off when their school ring me at work asking for Mrs (married name) - a name I have never used, and then complain that they couldn't get hold of me (of course they couldn't - my secretary has no idea who Mrs (married name) is). I should point out that I religiously fill out the school's emergency contact form every term and specify that they must ask for Dr (maiden name) if the phone me at work.

My mum explained it to me when i was a kid as Miss being for unmarried, Mrs for married and Ms for divorced.

Even though I know now that isn't the case, and agree it shouldn't be the case... the association still lingers. Sorry!

We had a long thread a little while back about using Dr.

The conclusion was this:

some people think that people who use Dr when they are not medical doctors are wankers/stuck-up/trying to prove they are better than everyone else

some people think that the people in the previous category are wankers/have a chip on their shoulder/have a problem with other people achieving things that they haven't

My favourite argument was this.

No-one is born with either Mrs or Dr. They are titles that you achieve by doing something (getting married, gaining a qualification). If it is wanky/stuck-up/showing-off to use one then it is equally wanky to use the other.

I used to think Ms meant you were divorced.

I am now a Ms, I am married and have kept my own name.

oubliette I know a professor in her 50s who told me a hilarious story about why she uses her husband's surname, when she had had no intention of adopting it.

When she returned from honeymoon the porters proudly showed her the new sign on her office door with her married name on it. She was horrified, but so touched by their well-meaning gesture that she didn't have the heart to tell them to change it back!

My MIL double barrelled hers and FIL names but when DH and I married we dropped his mothers name, if I had wanted to add my name DC would have had a triple barrelled surname! MIL was not happy to say the least. I am quite happy to be Mrs Jelly but I think it would make sence if Mrs and Miss were dropped and all women were MS, so that your title just referred to your sex and not marital status.

I think it's interesting, and sad, that people are so determined to define a woman by marital status that they've invented a myth about Ms denoting divorced. Clearly there are lots of people who just can't cope with the idea that they don't automatically know whether a woman is married or not.

I won't sign forms that assume I'm a Mrs.

I don't give toss if people think I'm divorced, in any case. Or a lesbian. Or a divorced lesbian. Or - worst of all - one of those Rampant Femm-ine-ists, you know, the ones who want to do horrid emasculating things like vote and argue with blokes.

I have to explain to people why I use Ms quite often. It seems it's never occurred to them that it's insulting to women that they only get to take an adult title when they get married, instead of on turning 18 like men. My marital status is nobody's business, Miss is a child's title. Quite often they see my point and thank me for pointing out how sexist the traditional system is.

DD1 (6) thinks we should invent more titles for men so we can tell if they're married too.

Fanny I have to admit that if that had happened to me I'd probably have been the same.

Some of my colleagues use their professional name at work and their married name at home. They have to be really careful that their travel gets booked in the name on their passport though. Much easier to just use one name IMO, and since I'd already been using Dr (maiden name) professionally for quite a while when I got married I decided to stick with it.

" think it would make sence if Mrs and Miss were dropped and all women were MS, so that your title just referred to your sex and not marital status."

Surely it would make more sense to have a generic genderless title or dispense with them altogether.

I am willing to be flamed for this but in some environments I think it does matter. At work, where I am a respected professional I use first name, last name and never a title. I would not expect to be addressed as anything other than my first name at work and would raise an eyebrow if anyone called me Miss, Ms or Mrs anything.

However, in some environments where people expect to be called by title and name, especially in schools where it is customary to refer to teachers by title and at the doctors where the doctors are referred to as dr last name by all the staff and all the patients, I do expect to be addressed as title then last name because it is an equality issue. I am not subordinate to my doctor and in my opinion if my doctor or his or her staff wish to use my first name then I expect the doctor's first name to be used also. The same goes for my dc's teachers, if they are addressed as title last name, then I expect them to address me with equal respect. I don't think the title matter or if the last name is one's maiden name or one's dh's name but I think it is important that people treat others as equals.

What I will not do is call my GP Dr Blogg and have him or her calling me by my first name and the same goes for my children's teachers. It is in my opinion an example of how the state subordinates those to whom it provides services and it is completely unacceptable.

Ooooh, that's an interesting point, married.

I agree with you, although it hadn't struck me.

SoupDragon - yes, OR we could do away with them altogether now that people tend to address one another by forename, even in formal situations.

Like 'Comrade' SoupDragon?

Not that I disagree you understand - I am a Ms and have been since I had a thought about it. When I get married in the summer I will continue to be a Ms MaidenName, my children are double-barrelled and can choose to change it when they are older.

I just feel my name is so important to me, it is who I am - why would I change that because I am married? I will not ever be my husband's property!

:) If it is outdated to have a title that depends on marital status then it is most likely outdated to have one that depends on gender. Which leads me to think it's pretty outdated to have them at all really unless you have a "proper" title like Dr or Sir, Lady etc. I wonder when titles like Mr & Mrs came into being?

It's meting to remove my title from all documentation but really I can't be arced :o

meting?? Tempting.

Isn't it a bit like a merger where two companies merge and for a long time both names are represented but eventually one emerges, and it's generally the one tht was richer or bigger or more influential at the start and the other company name slips ever so quietly away.

Marriedinwhite's point is valid, but not really relevant to the Ms issue. Although the argument can be used in defence of the term Ms- both are equality related points. Nobody should flame anyone who wants to be addressed equally, whether it's a title from a person who you'd address with a title, or a title that doesn't reveal marital status in a society where half the population's don't reveal theirs. It's about all being on the same footing.