to think this is what everyone is thinking...

[whatdoyouthink101]

But not saying because it's not "PC".

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the rich out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply the wealth by dividing it."

• Dr. Adrian Rogers

I wouldn't go looking for a job as a mindreader OP, cause you're crap at it

I can assure you that's not what I'm fucking thinking, OP.

This might interest you, OP.

topics.scmp.com/news/hk-news-watch/article/Cage-homes--worse-than--living-on-street

IMO there is a discussion to be had on what % of the income of those working should be given to those who are not, for how long, and for what causes.

I think it becomes more necessary to have is discussion as we increasingly compete with societies that are not structured the same way as well.

Fuck off,OP. Not taxing someone on NMW ISN'T going to solve the problem of them being unable to afford the basics in life. NMW for a FT job is £11,856PA. Rent on a HOUSING ASSOCIATION (i.e. one of the cheapest types of housing available) 2-bed house in the SE is £6,273PA. That leaves just £5,583pa to pay for EVERYTHING else.

Another £1,312PA for council tax (Band C in my area) would leave just £4,217. Water, average of £525PA here. Leaves just £3,692. Monthly bus ticket to get to work, over the year, works out as £676. Leaving just £3,016PA. Gas and electric works out to around £1,300PA. Leaving just £1,716PA.

So, for working FT, a worker on NMW will be left with just £1,716 for food, clothing, and leisure FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR. That works out to just £33 a week. Or £4.71 A DAY. For working FT. Is that right, in this day and age? What if that person working for NMW is a Lone parent, and also has to pay for food, clothing and leisure for a child or children out of that £4.71 a day? What if that person working for NMW has a disabled partner that CAN'T work? What if that person working for NMW has a baby that his partner is staying at home to BF?

People I hate more than the Tories are Libertarians.....

Maybe if EMPLOYERS started paying a living wage to ALL of their employees, rather than an astronomical wage to the people at the top of the chain, and less than subsistance levels for those at the bottom, things would work a little better, with less benefits needed.

80% of Housing Benefits claimants WORK. Are Employed. Are not 'scrounging layabouts'. They JUST DON'T EARN ENOUGH to cover their basic living costs. When THAT problem is solved, it will go a long way towards cutting the costs of welfare in this country.

Of the other 20%, roughly half are disabled, and too SICK to work. So that leaves just 10% of Housing benefits claimants that are unemployed that could possibly work. And often, there just AREN'T any jobs they have the skills to do.

Tax Credits are just a Business Subsidy that allows employers to pay their staff LESS than it costs to survive and cover basic living costs in this country. When we solve this problem, it will go a long way towards cutting the costs of welfare in this country.

Capitalism, and a Free Market Economy NEEDS a 'stock' of unemployed people in order to keep wages lower, to maximise profits for those at the top of the heap. Without a 'stock' of unemployed people, if EVERYONE was employed - who would work for you if you set up a business? Everyone would already BE in work, DUH! AND, if you COULD persuade anyone that was already employed to work for you, you would have to 'tempt' them to your business by PAYING THEM HIGHER WAGES. Which would cost you, the employer more, and reduce your profits.

Get your facts right BEFORE posting, OP.

OP, WRT your comment on HK well move there then. I thnk you might not find it quite the economic utopia you imagine.

I've just finished reading Call the Midwife (stop here anyone who hasn't read it but plans to), about Jennifer Worth's experiences as a midwife in the East End in the 1950s. In it, recalls a batty and irritating old woman called Mrs Jenkins who lives in fairly foul conditions and goes around annoying people by asking incessant questions about babies. Worth then discovers her story. The woman was married and had six children - this was between about 1910 and 1920. Her husband suddenly died. No welfare state, so she and her elder daughter had to go out to work for a pittance. But Mrs Jenkins is working in a factory, and gets her arm torn in some unguarded machinery. These were the days before the dreaded elf 'n' safety that we all complain about, you see.

No sickness benefit either, so she and the six kids have to live on next to nothing, just the tiny amount of money the eldest daughter bring in. The youngest child, aged 2, dies. Mrs J in despair eventually takes herself with her five children into the workhouse. She is separated from the five children - adults and children are not allowed to mix. Then she hears that her remaining youngest child has died, but she is not allowed to attend the burial. One by one she hears of the death of her other children. The eldest, aged 14, is the last to die. Mrs Jenkins is allowed out of the workhouse in the 1930s, after about 15 years inside.

That's what life was like before the welfare state. That, I guess, is what the OP and the delightful Dr Adrian Rogers want us to return to.

What HuntyCat said. Every word of it. Especially the "DUH!"

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9027846/The-rise-of-the-overclass.html

"We?ve all heard of the 'underclass?: now its mirror image ? a super-rich elite that is equally cut off from the rest of us ? is defining the political debate."

I am still fucking laughing at the 'I dont read newspapers because they are full of lies, I read it on the internet' comment.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa

What a fucking muppet.

Seconded, Mrs DeV.

Because the internet is full of sane, reasoned debate.

I love you HuntyCat. That is all.