to wonder how my mum can still be friends with this woman?

[SadDaughter]

Hello,

I'm posting here as I would like the opinions of other mums. I hope that is okay.

When I was six, I had a normal (two-sided) squabble with one of my schoolfriends. I think it was over felt tip pens or something equally as trivial. It was the kind of argument that would have been forgotten by the next day. Our parents had already arranged for me to go over to her house after school that day, so her mum picked us up and then when we got to her house she noticed that we weren't really talking to each other much. She took her daughter aside and asked her what was going on. She then marched back into the room, bent down right in front of my face and starting yelling at me. She called me a bully, said that it was unacceptable for anyone to bully her daughter, that because I was a bully I'd never have any friends, I was a horrible girl. It felt like she was shouting for hours but it was probably only a minute or two. I was absolutely terrified. When she had stopped she left the room and I went and got my coat and shoes on and sat by the door waiting for my mum to arrive.

When my mum arrived I begged to go home but the mum invited her in for a cup of tea, as though nothing had happened. My mum did asked the usual "how did she behave?" type question and the other mum said that everything had been fine, that me and her daughter had had a disagreement at school but that she had dealt with it. On the way home I tried to tell my mum what had happened but she just thought I was being melodramatic.

We'd often socialise with the same families, including this woman. All the children would play together but if anyone misbehaved or there were any problems, this woman would always be the one to intervene and accuse me of causing it. (I know this sounds like I am being melodramatic but my dad and my sister noticed this too, and have commented on it since). My mum knew this was going on but she never said anything. The other children soon realised that they could get out of anything by saying that I had "made" them do it or "bullied" them. (Again, my sister and my dad have both mentioned this since). And this mum told other parents that I was a bully/troublemaker etc. too so soon I became the scapegoat for everything.

I'm not blaming this woman for all of my life's problems, but this situation really affected me all through school, especially because her daughter was in my class until sixth form. In primary school I was mercilessly bullied by this girl, and her best friend, because they knew they'd get away with it by saying I bullied them, and when I made friends outside of the circle, these girls would end up bullying them too so no one wanted to be my friend. I began to believe that I really didn't deserve friends, and I now still have massive trust issues and to be quite honest I don't really have any close friends.

My mum still socialises this woman.

I have tried to bring up how I feel with my mum, and my sister and dad have mentioned they noticed the behaviour. But everyone just laughs it off and so I feel like I have to too. I know I should probably be over it by now but it was just such a painful experience.

I think it's too late now (it was about 15 years ago now). Realistically I can't ask her to not be friends with this woman because it would probably affect a lot of friendships and if my mum were to mention this to the woman it would probably cause a lot of trouble. But still, part of me just feels so betrayed every time my mum invites this woman into her/our home (I'm away at university now so only live at home in the holidays). Every time I see her I go back to feeling like that six year old who just wants to disappear.

I don't know if this woman actually believes she was doing anything wrong. Part of me understands that she was trying to protect her daughter from a perceived threat. But her behaviour was so extreme given that it resulted from one incident, and she only had her daughter's word for what happened. I am not a mother so maybe I don't understand the level of protectiveness that mothers can experience, but I have worked with children a lot and I can't imagine that I would ever treat a child in that way, regardless of what they had done.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm asking for, I guess I just want to know how other mothers would react to this situation.

Sorry this is so long, and thank you to anyone who has read it and replies.

I'd find a point where your mother and this woman were socialising together at your house, walk in and say - it's time I got some facts straight. And then tell her - and your mother - exactly what really happened - especially that it caused you to become a victim of bullying by her daughter because they quickly learned they could blame you for anything.

She'll bluster and your mum may even be angry. But you'll have lanced the boil. So angry on your behalf.

whatever happens I would love that your mums "gets" your upset, and says to this woman "sorry but you cant come around XXXX day, you know that sadaughter has an issue with you" .. wishful thinking?

Your friend's mother had no duty of care towards you so there's no point in directing your anger towards her. How she behaved that day was unacceptable but to be honest how your mother subsequently behaved is just shocking, and I think that might be the real reason why you feel so bad about this incident. You told your mother that an adult severely frightened you and she didn't believe you. Because she didn't believe you, you went on to suffer terribly at the hands of this other girl and her mother. Basically your mother failed to protect you.

My mother failed me in a somewhat similar way. For years I felt "protective" of her, didn't want to upset her by talking about it, forgave her for having low self esteem, made every excuse under the sun for her just not stepping up and protecting me. In the end, for my own sanity, I had to admit that she just plain failed. When I tried to talk about it with her, she cried, said I was making her feel guilty and told me I should get over it. And that was it. No, "Oh I'm so sorry, I should have done something different", no "Oh my gosh Cailin do you want to talk about it?" She never mentioned it again or tried to help me in any way, just like she never did when I was child.

Your mother would have had to have been blind not to see what was going on with you. Your father and sister noticed, why didn't she? Why didn't you tell her about the bullying that was going on?

I keep reading this and getting angrier

I want to fuck that woman and her daughter up! GRRRRR

not helpful, but I want to to "get" how wrong and unfair this was

Yanbu. Sorry your mum didn't listen to you when you were younger.

A friends dad once called me a little bitch when I was 9 - when I told my mum she flipped, called him and the school up and dealt with it very well.

Also my sister had a argument with a girl and the mum yelled at her, my mum did the same.

Your mum should've listened to you as that woman obviously scared you and picked on you afterwards. I would be annoyed if my mum socialised with her.

Like the others have said, you have to move on and let it go. I would talk to your mother though.

You should have this out with the woman directly. It's the only way you will be able to deal with it. Write down what you want to say and say it. Finish with something along the lines 'you are dead to me'.

My Mum has a friend similar to this. She always favoured my dbro over me, praising him highly and ignoring me.

When I was about 15yo she came and visited us and decided to have a hysterectomy (as you do) and stayed for several months. she lived in another part of the country. She managed to regularly ruin my clothes in the wash and lose/damage other things of mine.

This friend has two of her own children who she worshiped and always compared to me and any achievements I had - were always out done by her kids.

Anyway in the last 25+ yrs she hasn't spoken to me, congratulate me on my wedding despite seeing me a couple of days after it or acknowledged any of my 3 kids. My dbro on the other hand has been showered with gifts for each of these occasions.

I have told my dmum that I really can't stand this woman and I think she is a bitch. I don't want to hear about what she has been doing and I am not interested in hearing about dmums visits to her. Dmum understands this and I think to a degree has slightly agreed with me, and can see how she has behaves differently to me.

It felt great to tell my dmum! My theory is that this woman is just a miserable bitch! Her DH is a arsehole who controls her with money, her daughter still lives at home and has never had a job. She also basically raises her grand daughter. Her son is an ex heroin addict, who is now a street preacher, they have restraining orders against him and have moved house secretly to keep him away.

I now realise it was never about me, it was all her problem, she just wanted to bring me down. The best thing you can do is tell your Mum how you feel and how this has affected you. Then avoid the other hag when you can!

Forgot to add that if anyone did this to any of my children they would never be welcome in my presence again..... Ever!!

ermno - utterly bitchy and self absorbed comment. You must be very shallow and narrow minded and I pity you for that.

OP - I hope you can find some way to deal with this. I do think you need to gently let your mum know. Also your dad - you say he saw it but now he's downplaying it too? How odd

This thread is weird, it's made me remember the bullying I experienced at school. It made me a person who will never ever be pushed around again whatever the cost. I think bullying affects different people different ways though. It just made a fierce person when threatened, the rest of the time I am am a soft as anything.

I wouldn't say anything, just because I doubt she'll give a monkeys.

Wow, thank you JustHecate. I'd never even thought about the fact that it wasn't me personally! :) I'd always wondered what it was about me that made her so angry. Maybe I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. You're right, she is quite like that about her children. Even now that her youngest is about 16, she will never admit that her children are at fault, there's always a reason of one kind or another.

Although some things that have been said since do make me think it was slightly personal to me, or to the situation I was in. I probably should've said before. The girl involved, me and one other girl were sort of threesome of best friends, and their mothers were trying to steer the two other girls to become best friends because neither of them wanted their daughters to be left out if I became best friends with one of their daughters, if you see what I mean. This casually came out in a conversation a couple of years ago with the other mother involved. It's so bizarre. We were all six years old, to be honest I had no idea that I was meant to have just one best friend and we were all perfectly happy with the situation until mothers became involved.

pigletmania my dad worked fulltime and my mum was at home so my dad was only there to see what happened at a few incidents later on. He did step in once but he had no idea of the extent of it all. If both my parents were there though, my mum would always be the one to make decisions and do the "parenting". She has big control issues.

We were brought up that we couldn't go complaining to one parent if we didn't like the verdict of the parent we'd asked about whatever it was. Of course, it didn't apply for this kind of situation now I know but as a child I would never have gone to complain to my dad about something I'd told my mum and she'd dismissed. I should have told him because I know that if he had known how miserable I felt then he would've stepped in straight away. I know because he did step in to a situation at secondary school many years later, and that's how I got the counselling!

Thank you everyone for your posts.

I know I do need to discuss this with my mum, either in person or through a letter, to help me get some closure. I'm away at uni so I won't necessarily be at home for another 8 weeks or so, depending if I go home to visit. This gives me plenty of time to think through what I'm going to say and how to say it. I don't want to do something rash and then realise I didn't handle it well. I don't want to cause unnecessary suffering for anyone, but equally I do not want to let this hang over me forever.

CotherMuckingFunt I know exactly what you mean about the trust issues, that's how I feel. Logically I know that I'm a perfectly okay person and that there's no reason why people wouldn't want to be my friend, but there's always this feeling that they are just being my friend because they pity me or they're trying to trick me. Made worse by the fact that in secondary school a girl befriended me and seemed really sympathetic to my feelings, I confided in her a lot because well, I had no one else to talk to! Then she told this girl what I'd told her, who then told everyone in my year. Everyone laughed at me and sent me notes about how sad I was and lonely. So now I can't help but think any friendship is some kind of conspiracy (by who?!) and I just do not ever discuss my feelings with friends, and this all has a massive impact on friendships because I seem cold and distant when really I'm just irrationally scared of being betrayed in some way.

This all seems so ridiculous to write out. I knew it was silly when I was in school and could never tell my counsellor about it all. Now I'm just embarrassed that I let so many people bully me. Sadly at school once you've got the reputation of being bullied, everyone think it's okay to take a dig and no one wants to be friends with you. I hate to think of all the children who are now being bullied because one, more confident, person took a dislike to them.

This thread has been so helpful, and you've all been so supportive and given me lots of different ideas to work with, thank you! I think I will have a look into counselling perhaps, writing this down has really helped but now I think I need some actual "techniques" for getting my feelings out and dealt with so that I can get on with my life.

I hope to be a mother one day, and I know it's impossible to do it perfectly, but I just hope I make my child, and any other children I look after, feel safe, and respected, and loved. Whilst I resent my mum for not believing me and protecting me, the other mother took that too far the other way by protecting her child and hurting other children.

StealthPolarBear I think part of the reason that everyone is downplaying it is because that's how I responded to a horribly uncomfortable situation.

Mum: "and X and Y are coming" (the woman and her partner).

Me: "I don't really understand why you are friends with X, she never invites you to any of her events, she gossips about all your friends in front of each other, and the there was that whole thing when I was younger"

Mum: "I think she just didn't like you very much"

Me: "Maybe, but it was quite horrible for me..."

Mum: "I really should start on the soup in a minute!"

Then my dad and sister came into the room and asked what we're talking about

Mum: "Just about how X used to hate SadDaughter so much when she was younger ha ha ha, it was all a bit silly wasn't it"

Me: "Yes I suppose it was silly...ha ha ha"

So then of course everyone thought I thought it was just a funny thing that happened years ago! It probably isn't as clear in other people's minds because they genuinely didn't realise it was a big deal. My younger sister has been quite sympathetic when I've mentioned it but she has her own, more serious, problems to deal with now so I don't want to burden her with this.

Sorry that seemed to be the shortest/simplest way to get across the conversation. Looking back at this I'm angry that my mum wouldn't let me talk about it now. I expect maybe she's embarrassed or ashamed that she knew and didn't stick up for me. But I deserve to talk about it. I'm definitely going to try now that I've read that back.

Poor you, what a horrible thing to happen.

I can still remember some things said by bullies to other kids when I was at primary school and they still make me squirm - probably because I didn't stick up for the poor other kid. If it affected me it certainly must have affected them and I'm talking about 50 years ago now!! Bullying by an adult must be much worse.

But I think bullies are reflecting some fear or failing in their own nature which they are re enacting or compensating for in their bullying. So it's really the bully who has the problem not the bullied, iyswim. Perhaps the evil woman was reenacting something from her own childhood. Her behaviour went on a long time and was unnecessarily cruel so I would think there was something nasty behind it unrelated to you.

Your mother let you down but mother's have failings too. She may have been in awe of this pushy woman and nervous about standing up to her.V sad for you.

Am not sure about trying to 'take on' this woman and/or your mother. I can see them feigning ignorance of the whole thing, that way they can avoid any guilt.

I think you should DEFINITELY get counselling - and go until you can think of these happening in the past without a twinge of hurt or pain, probably impossible but just making the point that this hurt should be just a distant memory.

Once you have come to terms with it and moved on (say, in a year or twos time), then speak to your mother. Once it is behind you you shouldn't have any need for revenge but it would be reasonable for your mother to explain her behaviour.

Being at uni is an ideal time to get free medical help. Please find a nice counsellor (preferably psychologist) and sort it all out. You have your whole life in front of you don't have this shadow hanging over it.

SadDaughter you do need to talk to your mum. She has failed as a mum to protect you as a child, and you as an adult now need to let her know the situation and how you feel. I guess in hindsight its easy as an adult to say that in this situation you should have told your dad, but as a young child you were scared of the ramifications and of your mum. My dd is 4.10 has SN and I am fiercly protective of her, and my mother tiger mentality comes into play if I see others taking advantage of her, I cannot understand why your mum took a blind eye. It wasen't just this one incident though, this mother intimidated you throughout your childhood, and made others turn against you, basically bullied you, she was and still is a nasty piece of work, and for your mum to still be friends with such a woman is . Though i don't think your mum knows the full extent of it and that is why you should tell her.

I would not take on this woman, but definitely your mum, as she is your mum and I feel thats the only way you will get some kind of closure.

I hate to harp on saddaughter, but I am seeing huge echoes of myself in you. The way you say "my sister has bigger problems..." "I suppose they just didn't realise..." You are a valid person in your own right whose feelings do count. It seems to me that you've been given a very strong message by your family, mainly your mother that you are not to rock the boat, that she will continue to do as she pleases in spite of your feelings.

I had all the same thing from my family. I eventually ended up very very depressed from tying myself in knots over it. To this day I feel quite angry towards my parents, and the only way I've resolved it with myself is to distance myself from them. I hope you have a better outcome with your parents.

JosieZ that is exactly the position I want to be in, where the feelings are just memories, rather than every time I think of it, feeling anger and hurt again. I don't want revenge, and I'm not going to ask my mum to stop being friends, really I want to get to the situation where none of this bothers me at all. Where I can just ignore the woman, accept that my mum let me down in the past, but that that is all in the past.

pigletmania I'm glad you are so protective of your daughter and that she knows you are on her side :) you sound like a lovely mum.

Given that my mum didn't take it very seriously when I tried to talk about it before, I'm going to try and process things a bit by myself and prepare better to talk about it. And this time I'll make sure we're on our own and will be for the whole conversation, last time I just brought it up on the spur of the moment.

I know I'm making a lot of excuses for my mum. I know she isn't/wasn't perfect but it feels horrible to admit that she really let me down.

Still think you need counselling (nag, nag - entitlement of older poster).

My daughter's best friend's mother was an alcoholic and committed suicide however the daughter is the most well adjusted person you could find and a great friend - she had regular counselling and still does occasionally. It is so good to have someone to explain your true feelings to and it really sorted her out.

OTOH my father was an alcoholic and I still see the issues that caused in my family and we are in our 50s now. V sad. It was the elephant in the room and still is.

CailinDana please don't feel that you are harping on or that I don't value your opinion and insight.

When I say my sister has bigger problems, she has serious depression with suicidal thoughts. She recently told me that she felt guilty for not protecting me when I was bullied at school (she's several years younger than me!). I don't want to bring it up again with her because I know that right now she is not in a place where she can deal with my feelings rationally without blaming herself. (I hope I've worded that okay, I'm not saying that people with depression cannot think rationally. I only have my sister's experience to work with but it seems that when the depressive thoughts take over, even if logically she knows something isn't true, she cannot turn off the feelings that it's her fault or that everything is awful etc.)

I feel protective of my mum because she was so very badly treated by her own parents, and chose never to confront them. Now they talk about what a happy childhood she had and everyone acts like nothing happened. I can see how horrible it is for her, but she just laughs it off. I know she didn't deliberately mean for me to be hurt by the way she behaved, I think perhaps she just didn't know what to do. No one had ever defended her as a child. She was so desperate for us to have a better childhood than she did so I've always felt like I need to prove to her that we did.

I'm going to find a way to get past my feelings of anger (possibly counselling) and then I'm going to just calmly explain to my mum that what this woman did was not an acceptable way to treat a child and that I wish my mum had stood up for me, but that I now accept that what happened in the past is in the past and that we all need to move forward. I just need to get to a place where I can say that completely honestly first! :)

JosieZ thank you, not nagging at all. I came here to get advice from other people and it is all very appreciated!

I'm sorry that your dad's alcoholism is still affecting you and your family. I hope that you personally have found a way to come to terms with things even if they still affect your relationship with your family. I hope that comes across in the way I meant it!

I understand how you feel as I have an opposite problem. My grown up daughter is still friends with a woman who was completely vile to me! I wish I could stop her seeing the bitch but I can't. I have tried to discuss in an adult way how it makes me feel - she has only heard the side of the other woman about what happened, but basically the OW treated me like shit when she no wanted me around and then made herself out to be a caring wonderful person who was 'backing away' as she felt she could no longer 'help me' [puke] Sadly, my daughter refuses to properly discuss it so I have to be the adult and allow her to get on with it. It's really hard and I hope you can get through to your mum, but if not, sometimes you have to let go. Good luck!

Thanks sad if and when you become a mother you will feel the same and i am sure you will make a lovely mum too .

I'm glad you're considering counselling. imo this is a very serious problem and won't just 'go away'. Bad enough that this inadequate bullied you atrociously when you were a small child but nightmarish that you weren't believed by the one who was supposed to protect you; and that it is still, to this day, being swept under the carpet. The effects of this vile woman's bullying trailed after you throughout your schooling, driving home a message that you couldn't shake off. Add to that that your mother is still friends with this horrid woman - I'm surprised you don't pop tbh. A vast injustice was done to you which wormed its way deep into your consciousness and was kept alive and kicking throughout your formative years. You were betrayed again by the 'friend' who made public your fears, expressed in confidence, and opened you up to more ridicule. My heart goes out to you. You didn't deserve one drop of what happened to you but it has left you understandably deeply mistrusting in relationships, afraid to let anyone get close. That is a serious problem imo. What happened to you is right up there so don't think for one minute you would be wasting a counsellor's time - this is precisely the sort of issue that needs professional support. YOu are still young - please don't let this lie any longer.

The message from your mum may have been that you mustn't rock the boat but imo you have a duty to yourself to ensure your future relationships are healthy and fulfilling. It is hard to stand against the family code (t-shirt) but not impossible - though imo you will need professional support to do it. Counselling won't be about demonising your mother but you owe it to yourself to get this out in the open and to keep it there and refuse to allow it to be ignored. The passing convo you had with your mum about it made me seethe tbh - it is NOT a laughing matter. I also don't believe the reasoning that it was acceptable that the woman 'just didn't like you'. ffs, she's an adult and if she 'didn't like you' that had everything to do with her and nothing to do with you. You were 6!

What a cow!

I think you need to talk to two people - your mum, to lay it on the line just how bad things got. She probably doesn't know, or chooses not to know.
And then talk to that woman and tell her in detail how badly she behaved and how it affected you.

Someone was posting on here recently about how there weren't any 'hard-core mothers' anymore and what a shame it was .