To wonder how so many of you can know some lifelong dole scrounger when the official figures are so low?

[ValarMorghulis]

I am forever seeing ignorant rants posts on here from people who are appalled that Bob down the road has never worked a day in his life, that their relative is a career claimant or that Sue next door is knocking out child afyer child with different men and not one of them funding their children.

yet the statistics state, and there is no reason to believe them to be false, that the numbers of long term claimants ( 5 years or more) is actually 0.3%

This raises two questions for me.
Firstly, why are we all so convinced that half the world is a lazy feckless scrounger satisfied to sit back and have us taxpayers pay their way. It clearly isn't the case at all.
And secondly, if the numbers are so small how come they all manage to live within close proximity to a Mumsnetter?

littlemisssacrastic
I get the FACT that having been awarded does NOT mean you get a free tax disc from the FACT that getting a blue badge does NOT give you a free tax disc.

If your mother gets the free tax disc then itis because she qualifies for higher rate mobility component of DLA Or for the War pensions mobility scheme,

It really is rather silly to post in bold arguing something that is fact. A very short google should point you to some evidence that you are indeed wrong.

Hello again ValarMorghulis...I think you posted an interesting OP, look at the replies and tell me it wasn't!

I'm very much 'left of centre' 'non-basher'...(I'm Scottish, what else could I be?! No Tory lovers here ) Yet I do believe that in some circumstances, living on benefits (then/now?) did/does constitute a choice.

I did NOT decry my friend as a 'cheat, scrounger, or parasite' etc but did post on where her 'income' and support was derived from over a period of 20+ years. (I DID rear up (at the time) over her complaint that she was paying the outrageous! sum of £400 p/m in tax after never having been in employment from the age of 16 to 37!)

I'm saddened to reflect that an incredibly bright, capable, and young (then!) woman was not better educated, informed, and encouraged to be self-supporting in whatever way she was most able to be. Her children, my darling 'Niece' and 'Nephew' of all those years ago, are still mired in unemployment/dependancy because of the 'choices' she made so very long ago.

Good post Littlemisssarcastic.

Except I would add that people who choose to live a benefits lifestyle my be a minority, but they are a very significant minority.

It simply shouldn't be an option to choose a life on benefits. These people should be looked at so closely that they would prefer to get a job than have someone checking over their life constantly. It might be unfair for the people who have a genuine need to be on benefits, but at the end of the day they will still be recieving money which they haven't worked for, so they would have no reason not to be grateful that the welfare system exists, even if they do have to justify their need.

PreviouslyLost - It has never been my opinion that there aren't people who simply refuse to work. who are happy to survive on benefits rather than living on a working wage. As i say, i work within a field where i meet people like this and live in an area where unemployment is prevalent.

What i was saying is that I don't think it is as rife as the media would have us believe. There are so many stories of "someone I know" similar indeed to what you have posted. Now whilst i do not believe it was ever your intention to deceive or even falsely represent your old friends situation, the details you have recounted aren't entirely accurate as those who are knowledgeable in the area of certain benefits can tell you.

It isn't that people are purposely lying in order to make us all hate those on benefits.

But i think it is a case of old wives tale meets chinese whispers. We know certain aspects of a family and we sort of fill in the rest with assumptions. I doubt we even realise the line between the fact and the fiction.
We are bombarded with tales of scroungers and how our tax money is paying for these people to have flat screen tvs etc. So however left wing we like to think of ourselves, we can't help but be a bit suspicious or even bitter about the fact that we get home late at night, miss our children and fall into bed tired after a long day, yet our neighbour gets to seemingly have similar free money yet without the workload.

That clouds our opinions somewhat and we end up seeing scroungers where we once saw disadvantaged.

My exh gave up his job 4 years ago as I had got an attachment if earnings from the csa. He's not worked since

He says it's my fault as I won't write off the arrears

There is NO REASON he can't work at all

He has a council flat in a nice area too.
He gets cash in hand for playing in a band

There most definitely are people out there who don't want to work

Yes people should chose a life of working to pay their way rather than living on benefits.

but when the only jobs that are open to them leave them no better off financially, yet they are spending hours doing a menial job with little by wya of career progression, can you blame them?

the answer of course is to make sure that work pays. That no job should leave you on a par or even in some circumstances worse off, than when on benefits.

Of course there would still be some that prefer to remain unemployed and will do their best to play the system to their advantage.

But rather than despise them, we should pity them. What life must they lead to feel that £52 per week is such a great reward for the lying and scheming they must do to keep it?

No one is truly disadvantaged in this country. There are people that face quite huge obstacles in order to live a life that many of us would consider normal, but that is no excuse to be lazy and not even try.

I'm happy to admit I feel quite bitter about it. Some of us that actually pay into the system have to fight for what we get out of the state in terms of quality healthcare or sufficient support for children with SN. And there are others that have access to the same healthcare, same support, the same jobs, and are capable of work but get much much more out of that system. It's wrong.

My Ex In laws.

BIL1 never worked only selling Christmas Trees, married a single parent with 4 dc's who had never worked. Eventually he died just as the youngest dc was leaving school so SIL had then to find work.

BIL 2 was claiming dole while running a business and living with SIL who was claiming as a single parent. She had four dcs altogether and was very blatent about not working as she thought it was her 'right' to claim. She eventually had to go to work when they split up and he kept the kids.

MIL and anotehr SIL never worked a day in their lives

Ex friend now has four DC's and has only ever worked for two years as a childminder, now nearly 40

Ex friend had 5 DC's and worked for two years until she was 18 then not again till she was 35.

Mums friends partner on longterm DLA but works most of the week painting and decorating/laying patios, his daily rate is £120. On his odd days off he carries his fishing gear half a mile to the canal. He has been reported

I know several young single people on benefits who do occasional cash in hand jobs that they don't declare. While I disaprove, I do have some sympathy for them because they can't find work that will pay a decent wage, ie enough to live on; and that is secure, ie that will last more than a couple of weeks at most. However they don't have much get-up-and-go but this could be that their many rejected job applications have knocked their confidence.

I think people get signed on and off (I have clients frequently complaining about this) if for example they miss a week, change banks/addresses and delay notifying, that sort of thing. Would that account for the 'clock' being restarted for stats purposes?

My son is autistic.
there is very little chance that he will be able to provide much to the gain of society, financially at least.

I can understand why you would feel that way Kitchenroll.
But i think you can choose not to feel that way. It is detrimental to yourself to waste so much energy on negativity. I know that sounds really hippy dippy and i'm not, trust me. But what does it gain to sneer at those with nothing?

No matter what the DM try to tell us, these people aren't living the high life. the only benefit claimants that are are doing so illegally. And as such are a different kettle of fish.

Those who just chose not to better themselves face what from life? the same weekly trip to cash their giro? What else do they have? Their lives will never move on, they are forever stuck in the rut they find themselves.

That isn't something to be envious of.

I'm fairly hippy dippy, and you are right. I gain nothing from feeling that way, but then I only really think about it when I read threads like this anyway.

You are right that they don't really have anything for me to be envious of. Except for lots of lie ins.

There are so many stories of "someone I know" similar indeed to what you have posted. Now whilst i do not believe it was ever your intention to deceive or even falsely represent your old friends situation, the details you have recounted aren't entirely accurate as those who are knowledgeable in the area of certain benefits can tell you

It isn't that people are purposely lying in order to make us all hate those on benefits

But i think it is a case of old wives tale meets chinese whispers

Previouslyonlost

What Valar said above is The same as what I want to say!

I dont disbelieve what you have posted, But I know that a child would never get a higher rate care DLA award if there was nothing wrong with him.

That is FACT

So assuming that he did have something wrong with him, I think your friend sounds like someone who has coped for a long time with a disabled child. not a scrounger or player of the system.

What you said about her 'knowing the system' I do too, because when you have a child with a disability you have to as it really isnt handed to you on a plate or in any way easy.

I am also determined and know how to talk to the right people to ensure my son gets what he needs.

I wonder if any of my friends think im faking it?

OP, I do actually get what you're trying to say. My cousin's DP is what you might call a 'scrounger' but I cannot get myself worked up about it. He does fuck all, but I wouldn't like to live on their income. If it's so great; why don't people just quit their jobs and go on benefits?

I think most people on benefits aren't there out of choice; it can't be enjoyable to constantly be scrimping and watching every last penny. To be honest, if you choose that life? Good luck to you. It can't be much of a life.

I think the DM demonises anyone claiming any sort of benefit, which makes me cross and lumps them together in this 'blame them' corner. Worried about the cuts? Blame 'them' on benefits.

I don't know any one who was going to be a footballer but had to give up
I also don know any one who dated any one famous

But I do know one person who is claming family tax and working tax as a single parent who has now been living with her boyfriend and his child who is also claming as a single unemployed parent.

And I also know somone who has never worked and has our children BTW the lady in question is 35

All I can say those who don't believe it then fine but their are plenty of teachers who work in schools are clearly telling you children who have started school in nusery and are now in years 5 are still on tickets and in between their parents have saw fit to have more children

maypole - your first is case of benefit fraud. Report them. The ore people report the less wastage there will be and the fewer cuts needed.

The second is a woman who is raising children. Where is the father of these children? why demonise her?

and im sorry but i don't understand the last paragraph.

Are you saying that someone who sends their child to school at reception is a scrounger if they are still collecting their child from school in year 5?

But maypole you should report them then! If you don't, then I don't think you can really complain.

itspeanutbutterjellytime because for some people it's demeaning to work as a cleaner or some such job and for some it's more demeaning to claim the dole

You say they scrimp and watch every lasts penny of only and that's the problem every time these people have a child their money gose up, their chances of getting a bigger house gose up and they get more help and handouts

The lady I know who had never worked a day in her life has just spent ££££ renting out a venue for her twins birthday
She got a budgeting loan to pay for it of which she will only pay back £4.67 a week and it's instrest free

If a working person wants to have a super sweet 16 for their children and they didn't have the money they couldn't do it end of

ValarMorghulis they are currently been investergated at the moment

The seconed lady who is sitting at home should be demonised as you put it because she knew she had no job and the three men she choose to have children with had no job either so who should we blame

One of the children's dad is in jail
The other deported as he entered the country unlawfully which she was aware of

And the father of her twins is busy with his wife and two other children I believe

Sorry want to calify my point many children go trough their whole school life wile being on free school meals all the while their parents having more children with various men teachers have clearly verified this and stated their school has in some cases 50% children on free school meals in of which their are geuine people but some parents have never done anything with themselves apart from get pregnant

she got a LOAN one that she pays back.

A working parent can also get a loan. they too would have to pay it back.
The difference is that they will be able to get a loan for a much larger amount and will be able to shop around for one that they like.

The woman on benefits has no option as no loan company will touch her.

Why shouldn't she be able to give her children a party? She is paying for it.

itspeanutbutterjellytime she claims he only stays their two nights a week
Of the out come is they believe her I not sure apart from sit out side her home and take picture what more I can do

But hopefully the new changes will see paid to this issue any way

ValarMorghulis I DO see your point of view, but to be fair my friend did 'do well' out of the then 'system'...no flat screen t.v's in our day though! (or P.C's or mobile phones for that matter...ancient? Moi? probably!)

I offered you a historical perception, can't be blamed 'now' for the Daily Mail 'sensibilities'...didn't even know it existed until a very few years ago, really! (Blame my MIL!) Whatever I posted was from friend's mouth originally, not mine. Not gossip, I 'lived' her life by being there on an almost daily basis.

It 'jars' with me now, that from fairly equivalent backgrounds, our lives were so disparate...and our children's may turn out to be even more so.

It's not a huge leap surely to see that, even today, people DO indeed, for multiple (and, often undeserved, societal inequality) reasons, choose to live on support paid for by people who are employed and who may be struggling on MW, with children, with disabilities or not, with caring responsibilities (for own children/relatives) with no support from Government agencies as they are deemed to be tax-paying resources.

I posted on your thread, despite every nerve and fibre in my body saying 'avoid, avoid, avoid'! I would LOVE a reasoned debate on the subject, but as everyone has a stake/opinion in the topic it can be heated (and Frothy!) thereby avoiding the central issues of poverty and life equity chances. Fucks me up on a daily basis, professionally and personally, tbh... stop England voting Tory and we might all have a chance perhaps?!

I dont think anything i say will sway you from your opinion Maypole but, it is sad that you think the way you do. I don't think you are alone, very very far from it. I think your standpoint is one that is probably held by a great many others.

but it is so very sad that that is the case.

"All I can say those who don't believe it then fine but their are plenty of teachers who work in schools are clearly telling you children who have started school in nusery and are now in years 5 are still on tickets and in between their parents have saw fit to have more children"

Personally, while I respect most teachers and the job they do, I do not like to hear teachers banging on about how they see benefits scroungers and such on a daily basis. They are not in these people's homes, and they cannot possibly know all the details of these people's lives. It's based on gossip and assumption. I would rather my child's teacher focus on their job teaching my child than speculate on my financial position. It's unprofessional and it does no-one any good.