To think Scotland becoming independent wouldn't have any impact on the rest of the UK?

[lesley33]

Some in Scotland want it to become independent. I don't really understand why the coalition government is fighting against this happening. Will it really matter in the rest of the UK if scotland does become independent?

god, no, deffo be proud of your own country, Soupy, wrest the movement back from the BNP asap. it's a disgraceful shame that they're the ones talking the loudest about being proud to be english. i hear pals being proud to be yorkshiremen, cumbrian, cornish etc... much more local than being english as a whole.

Actually my niece is mixed race and as Scottish as they come.
And she was born and brought up in the Highlands.
Racism is everywhere, and she actually experienced very little.

"lesley33 Wed 11-Jan-12 12:05:31

Anyone from BME background I have spoken to who visited Scotland has said how they experienced racism that they wouldn't have where they live."

how odd that you would seek to discuss this with anyone from a BME background who has visited Scotland.

There are an awful lot of insults on this thread that come across as very anti Scottish.
For me personally, if it's a choice between a Scottish Parliament or a Tory Goverment in Westminster for the considerable future (when there are practically no Tories in Scotland, it's a no brainer.
Why would I want to live under a Government which has no mandate to rule Scotland at all.
I'm not anti English, my ex is English so my son has extended family down there.
My brother has lived in Sussex for 25 years and is married to an English woman.
I don't understand why, just because some Scottish want to go it alone, there are so many prejudiced remarks.
FWIW I agree with Aitch, the English have let the likes of the BMP and the EDL to take over English patriotism. Of course you should be proud of your country, but putting down Scotland is not the way to go.

When someone goes on holiday you ask them if they enjoyed it. If they then say - yes gorgeous country but I was a bit shocked when.... - then taht is perfectly naturla.

In the same way as a lesbian I would say - yes beautiful country, but every time we checked in to a hotel we got funny looks when they realised we had booked a double bed.

It is only people who are not affected by these issues who might see it as a strange thing to talk about.

Which has happened in some countries btw

AitchTwoOneOhTwo first of all, as a Catholic of Irish descent married to an NI Catholic, and with Irish Catholic family members in Scotland, I will never apologise for caring about sectarianism or mentioning it. Scotland does have a problem with it. You obviously don't like it and seem to feel some sense of shame about it- good. That's an appropriate reaction. It's how I feel about racism in England too.

Unfortunately though, it seems to be driving you to dismiss their experiences. I repeat- they are better qualified to talk about this than you are, because they went through it. They experienced bigotry from dunderheaded nationalists of the knuckle dragging, my country right or wrong, fuck everyone who isn't a Scottish Protestant nationalistic variety. Not just unionists. I don't know how much this still goes on, I hope not much, but that strain of nationalism has existed. Whether you like it or not. It has. Some bigotry has been informed by Scottish nationalist viewpoints.

That's why it's relevant to a discussion about whether Scottish nationalism has always been positive and healthy. Because I know it has sometimes led people to show bigotry towards outsiders. The people whose stories I mention weren't abused just for being Catholic, but also for their nationality. This means the prejudice against them was nationalistic as well as sectarian.

Oh, my family members aren't the only Catholics to feel like this either. I don't think the SNP are anti-Catholic, but some of the old school do. I found a bit of info on these links, not much, I think it's a view that's dying out now, as the SNP have done a lot to try and reach out to Scottish Catholics lately:

www.snptacticalvoting.com/2008/10/war-of-patrician.html

davidtorrance.com/letters-reveal-snp-crisi-over-bigoted-presidents-anti-catholic-diatribes-from-the-times-11-9-2010/

glasgowunihumanrights.blogspot.com/2011/11/glasgow-university-product-and-tory.html

But exactly the same thing could be said about going on holiday in England lesley .

Yes it could. But I do think scots in general tend to be more racist.But generally afreas that have little immigration tend to be more racist - backed up by research. And England has far far higher levels of BME population than Scotmand. Apart from Glasgow, Scotland is largely still white.

And i do wonder if scottish nationalism encourages or makes this racism worse. I don't know if it does - I just wonder if it has an impact.

Redlac you seem now to attribute sectarianism in Scotland to other things aside from football. I agree. If you think it's only down to the Old Firm, why change the schooling system or ban marches? It seems that we both think sectarianism is perpetrated in a lot of ways, am I right?

I do however think you underestimate the importance of the folk memory of discrimination and oppression to Catholics. It's something that often gets passed down- and actually some people think the alleged overemphasis on this amongst Irish Catholics also causes problems and sectarianism. I don't, but it shows that it's something people are aware of. I wish the discrimination was only as recent as 1923 too, but sadly some appalling stuff remains within living memory. Well I know 1923 is living memory for some, but you know what I mean.

oh for goodness sakes, you two, lesley and flange, will you listen to yourselves? scotland more racist than england, you say? based on what some people have said coming back off their holidays? and flange, of COURSE sectarianism is a disgrace, it just has fuck all to do with nationalism, that's all. the fact that you keep saying it does, based on some ancient irish relatives, really doesn't give you any more chops than people who actually live here and have grown up with it. i wouldn't think someone from the Falls Road would take kindly to me lecturing them on the irish problem...

I did actually say the 'vast majority of problems' - I've never said it was solely down to the Old Firm. It is just that so much it tied up in the Old Firm (you only have to look at the number of rangers shirts at a Orange walk)

If I was Alex Salmond (god forbid) the first thing I would do is ban all fecking religions :)

anyway, as i say... yakking on about sectarianism is just a way of hijacking the conversation, which was about indpendence. (actually, according to lesley's OP that losing the racist country of Scotland wouldn't make any impact on the rest of the UK).

i would certainly ban the bloody walks, redlac. it is an absolute shame to this country that they are still allowed, i think.

just the sound of a flute band (of either sort) makes my teeth itch and makes me feel as if I've been dragged back several centuries

absolutely.

I made my point as a contribution towards the discussion about nationalism. I know it doesn't really have anything to do with what I originally posted.

I think like a lot of people I don't mind if Scotland decides to become independent - or not. I do think Scotland is financially viable as an independent country. But I think it is going to be far harder than Alex Salmond admits and will require public spending cuts.

sure, probably. in a way, though, i think those cuts are coming regardless, and i might personally tolerate it better from Salmond than Cameron. i feel for the north of england, thoguh, politically we have so much more in common and they will be stuck with tories forevermore.

i do think that an independent scotland will be a MASSIVE brand, though, so i hope that with the govt in charge of corpy tax etc we will be able to attract investors to our poxy, cold embra airport and beyond. plus, i should think it would be immense for tourism. wonder if it would have a genuine impact on the national psyche as well, encourage the neds to go to school? one can dream.

Why do you think it would be a massive brand? What difference would it make to tourists or potential investors?

ATOOT regarding sectarianism having nothing to do with nationalism, nope. The two have long been interlinked when Irish emigrate to Britain. This is not a radical view. Its part of what I did my dissertation on, as it happens, so I do know a bit about it. There's a wide discourse, both academic monographs and primary sources. I take my views on this from people who know much more about it than you do. I could probably dig up some of the references if you wanted (though you don't show any signs of wishing to learn).

It's interesting, btw, that you seem to imply you know more than I do because you're Scottish. The implication is that your lived experience is being dismissed. But that's what you're doing to the lived experience of people who experienced the sharp end of sectarianism. Your use of 'some ancient Irish relatives' is dismissive. The obvious conclusion to draw is that you don't want to hear this because it disrupts your view of Scottish nationalism. While you probably know more about the day to day operation of sectarianism in Scotland, that doesn't make you better qualified to assess the extent to which anti-Irish bigotry was sectarian as opposed to nationalistic. You mention the Falls Road, but actually its the views of people from there and similar areas that I'm telling you about.

Lastly, I have yet to hear why you get to decide what's relevant to a conversation about Scottish independence and what isn't. I've participated extensively in this thread, discussing possible economic and citizenship options for an independent Scotland, so it should be obvious to anyone who isn't motivated mainly by defensiveness that I'm not trying to derail the discussion. I can't seriously believe anyone doesn't think there's at least a discussion to be had about the links of nationalism of any kind to bigotry and fear of the other, either: even if you find the argument unconvincing, it isn't irrelevant.

I'd probably ban the walks too.

i think it would really allow us to market ourselves as separate from england (not actually a very popular country worldwide as any scottish tourist will tell you) and certainly we would be in control of our own corporation tax to bring in investment. very near to London and a hop to other financial capitals but with less rates to pay and an educated workforce. we would be in the fortunate position of learning a lot of lessons from ireland, i think, and for tourists an independent scotland could actually mean something, esp for those representing the scottish diaspora.

I'm not sure if an independent scotland would encourage more nationalism or less amongst scots?

oh give it a reast, flange. you made a snippy comment and got called on it. and look... suddenly a dissertation! quelle coincidence.

i would guess/hope more. but then i do see scottish nationalism as a benign, positive force.

I think Scotland e.g. highlands and Edinburgh are already marketed as separate to tourists. Sorry I honestly can't see the difference it would make to tourists. I have visited countries such as Yugoslavia that later became the independent Croatia. It amde no difference to me. I visited because of what was there i.e. scenery and roman ruins, nothing to do with independence.

I can see that ex scots might visit to see if an independent scotland is any different. But this would result in a one off slight boost - not an ongoing boost.

Less corporation tax might bring in more inward investment. Although I remember large firms being encouraged by thatcher to relocate by being given large "grants" who relocated as soon as these benefits ran out. So corporation tax would imo have to be kept lower than the rest of the UK all the time - which has an impact on income.

Scotland can not compete with London though for inward investment. Transport infrastructure and sheer volume of businesses located in London can not compete with any city in Scotland.