To think Scotland becoming independent wouldn't have any impact on the rest of the UK?

[lesley33]

Some in Scotland want it to become independent. I don't really understand why the coalition government is fighting against this happening. Will it really matter in the rest of the UK if scotland does become independent?

AitchTwoOnOneTwo, what a magnificent and compelling argument you make. Saying something is bullshit definitely proves your point.

Redlac, the Old Firm clubs reflect sectarianism that exists in Scottish society, and are a vehicle for it. But it was there a long time before they were. Rangers were only founded in the 1870s and Celtic in the 1880s- I assume you're not going to suggest there was no sectarianism in Scotland before then?!

The fact that Rangers fans express sectarianism through Unionist symbols does not mean this is the only form of sectarianism. I can see why you would think this if you view sectarianism only through the prism of Old Firm games, but you shouldn't. I appreciate that the modern SNP takes an anti-bigotry position, as evidenced by the recent position on hate speech, but there is more to Scottish nationalism than what the SNP say now.

PostBellumBugsy, that was a bit different as it was honouring a treaty that had been made some years previously. If you're arguing that the people of Hong Kong should still have been able to vote, I sympathise, but it's not the same as the situation you describe.

Which page is that on Aitch?

Devolution has been a mess. I don't care a monkeys if the scots choose independence or not unless they decide to declare war on England.

It will be interesting to see if scotland are daft enough to join the Euro.

actually niceguy... have you read ANY of this thread? i do love it when the chaps come on to tell us how it is without bothering their arse to read what's been said/discredited so far.

no idea, niceguy, i don't use pages.

flange... honestly, you are talking out of your backside. just do the right thing and believe people who actually know about sectarianism and how it works here...

is nationalism and breaking up into seperate countries a good idea? DS just asked me that. I know the European 'state' hasnt worked but the United States does. Rich, super power.Resources shared across the country (I'm speaking generally). Should we be breaking up into smaller countries, thus a smaller taxeable population so poorer areas might not get what they need?
And nationalism scares me. Both the EDL sort and the SDL.

i suppose the thing is that it would give the opportunity for new agreements but on more favourable terms, don't you think?

Flangelia - as I said up thread, i was raised in a Glasgow overspill town so I can only use my own experiences - have you ever been called a 'mongrel' because of the difference in your parents religion?

the Old firm perpetuate the sectarianism in Scotland - whose to say that if there was only one team in Glasgow, created in the 1800, with both religions that sectarianism would have died a death?

crucially, though, nothign to do with scottish nationalism at all. originally to do with anti-immigrant prejudice, way back in the day... plus ca change, read your Daily Mail. but nothing to do with scottish nationalism today.

In terms of RBS I guess England or the rest of the uk would have helped bail it out if the possibility of collapse would have had too negative an impact on the economy. However, the rest of the UK could have just said to an independent scotland - nothing to do with us, its up to you to sort out. After all with the collapse of several iceland banks, the UK government did not contribute to bailing out the banks even though many uk residents had savings accounts with these banks.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo, another marvellously argued post.

I do, however, take my stance from people who know about sectarianism. Irish Catholic family members of mine and NI Catholic family members of DHs who have told me about experiences they and their parents generations have had in Scotland, as Irish Catholics, looking for work. I have heard of relatives who were told that Scottish jobs should be for Scottish workers, (not British) no popery in Scotland, leave Scotland to the Scottish (not British). This bigotry and sectarianism was often articulated in explicitly Scottish contexts, not only Unionist. Like it or not, there are older Scottish and Irish Catholics who have experienced sectarianism from nationalists, whose nationalism influenced their sectarianism. It is not acceptable to simply dismiss their experiences because it doesn't suit the image you want to project.

So I trust elders in the Irish and Scottish Catholic communities, who have shared their lived experiences as victims of sectarianism, over some defensive internet poster who won't/can't even articulate why they hold the views they hold anyway. Quite simply, they are better placed to comment than you appear to be. Judging by this thread, unless you're deliberately hiding your light under a bushel for shits and giggles.

no, that's not how it would work. look down the thread and find the post that references andrew hughes hallett.

Redlac my parents are the same religion and ethnicity as each other, so no. Your life experience makes you much better qualified to speak about prejudice faced by people from mixed marriages than I am, and I respect that. What happened to you isn't right.

I'm not sure how exactly your experiences indicate that sectarianism stems from two football clubs though. They certainly perpetuate it, but that's not the same thing.

But you will often find that Scottish people call themselves Scottish and call Scotland Scotland not Britain purely on instinct. Nothing to do with whether they are nationalistic or not, its just they way things are.

bloody hell, flange, who rattled your cage? you made a snippy 'PS - sectarianism' crack at the end of a long post arguing against AberdeenButtery's assertion that Scottish nationalism comes from a healthy, civic-minded place.
Sectarianism, because it has nothing to do with nationalism, was irrelevant and showed you to be talking rubbish. You really should give it up, tbh, it made you look like a bit of a fool. As to your 'relatives', ask them again, because you've picked them up wrong. being anti-irish/catholic was/is not an expression of scottish nationalism, it's an expression of protestant bigotry. nothing to do with scottish nationalism at all...

I did read that post and says by international convention it is shared. My point was that although that may be the convention it isn't automatic. It hasn't always happened and banks are not always bailed out - remember barings? Governments choose whether to bail banks out or not.

bringing about sectarianism is, however, a brilliant way to derail a good conversation about scottish independence... i think we can look forward to hearing a lot more about it in the next couple of years, as the english seek to explain to us how it is that we are incapable of self-government.

just because english nationalism tends to assert itself most vociferously through skinheads and racists, don't assume the same of the scots.

And I do find the nationalism of some Scots a real turn off. It seems a far more nationalistic country than any other in the UK. I also think Scots in general are more racist than those in England and I do wonder iof there is a link?

because that vast majority of modern day bigots have no fucking clue that in 1923 or whenever that Irish Catholics were discriminated against - They are prompted to hate Celtic or Rangers fans, they are prompted to graffiti FTP or FTQ through what they hear on the terraces, from their fathers, etc.

Bigots don't generally sit down and learn about the history, they listen to their peers, their families, etc and no matter what you say if the Old Firm was to be disbanded/merged and better integration in schools and banning of ALL forms of protest walks, Scotland would become less sectarian

I disagree lesley, I think Scottish Nationalism comes across of love of our country.
I think English Nationalism comes from hatred of other races and countries.

Good riddance to the haggis eating, skirt wearing numpties, that's what I say.

I don't really say that, obviously, but I can't get excited about it one way or another. I find it interesting when big countries split down into their smaller original parts when, on the other hand, there were calls to become a closer and more integrated Europe. If they want to, why not?

So the English aren't allowed to be be proud of our country?

not really sure what's to be gained from speculating on how a govermnent might have abandoned convention in favour of letting hundreds of thousands of its own citizens lose their life savings, though. it's in the past. might as well make the case that fred the shred would have been better controlled under the SNP. (not that i think he would have been) it's all irrelevant at this stage, surely?

Anyone from BME background I have spoken to who visited Scotland has said how they experienced racism that they wouldn't have where they live. Apart from Glasgow, Scotland is a very white country.

And I think Scottish nationalism often comes across as anti English sentiment.

Jesus, Karetta, I think you need a history lesson regarding Northern Ireland.