To think Scotland becoming independent wouldn't have any impact on the rest of the UK?

[lesley33]

Some in Scotland want it to become independent. I don't really understand why the coalition government is fighting against this happening. Will it really matter in the rest of the UK if scotland does become independent?

I think nationalism of any kind can be benign and negative depending on circumstances - and I think the same for Scottish nationalism

me too, lesley. (just don't start getting it mixed up with sectarianism, which is Quite Different. )

i really don't think yugoslavia/croatia compares like with like, everywhere you go in the world people have heard of scotland/braveheart/tartan/bagpipes, all that shizzle, whereas no-one knows anythign about yugo. i don't suppose independence would encourage UK tourism, was definitely thinking more in terms of keeping worldwide tourists to the UK in scotland for longer (someone making a big UK trip tends to come to scotland if they are leaving london at all).

Sorry don't agree that people making a big UK trip tend to come to Scotland. They tend to go to London - and if outside London Cambridge and then maybe Bath. If they go further afield, then yes they will tend to go to Edinburgh.

I know yugoslavia is totally different. And I do think Scotland has a good brand for tourism. I just don't think independence will enhance that. People will continue to go to Scotland and particularly Edinburgh and the highlands/skye because of the marketing of those places.

i said if they are leaving London they'll come up. just what a friend who works for the Scottish Tourist Board told me, that's all, not sure why you'd know more about scottish tourism than her, or why Bath would be such a colossal draw.

Once again ATOOT an informative and well argued post. Dismissing contrary viewpoints out of hand saves you bothering to engage, of course, but it does make it look as though you don't have anything to counter the points made.

As for the dissertation, I thnk I've mentioned both my history degree and my ethnic and religious background on MN before now. Do you really find it such a stretch that a student of history, of my descent, might have an academic interest in the topic? Or do you think I set a cunning plan, some months ago, to hijack a thread about Scottish independence, and started dropping clues all about the place? I suppose I could find my dissertation and post it, would that do? much as I love arguing with desperately flailing people online, even I draw the line at composing 12,000 words just for the occasion. Especially for someone who it would clearly be wasted on.

Okay you are right - I was guessing. And you are right that after London, Edinburgh gets the most visitors followed by Manchester and then Birmingham.

I don't associate Sectarianism or racism with the brand of nationalism the SNP are promoting. Nationalism can be a force for good. Self determination is a healthy thing.

To me, what is on the table with independence is a modern Scotland, black, white, Asian, Scandinavian, English, German, Italian,Polish and Irish immigrants who are living and working here and have a stake in its future. It welcomes immigration.

Sectarianism is dying - the Orange walks are tiny - and I feel frustrated that it is brought up in this discussion. It is a small ( but shameful) part of Scotland's big picture.

I'd hope independence would then focus people's attention on the fact that there is a big old world out there with far more pressing problems than what school you went to, football team you support etc etc

As for ' the Scots are more racist' what point are you making? That Scots cannot cope with the boiling cauldron of independence? That there will be race hate riots?

I grew up in London and racism was alive and well and bloody thriving at my multi ethnic school I grew up with NF marches up our high street and the IRA blowing up the 177 bus and an army education centre along the road. I am neither racist nor a bigot. Neither are most of the Scots I have encountered.

Of course London has racism. But it has massively changed since the days you describe.

I don't believe 1 political party can control how nationalism is expressed. I would hope independence would not encourage negative nationalism, but I don't think anyone can predict that it wouldn't

I am looking forward to voting yes in the independence referendum.

As a english southerner i dont really care one way or the other if scotland vote for independance. But i do think if they are going to have a vote it should be done sooner rather than later, within the next 18 months at least rather than waiting until 2014.

If the scots do vote to go it alone then i will wave the bye bye and wish them luck and i doubt it will have any impact at all on my life.

I need to see the SNP majority in power for a lot longer before I decide to vote on independence.
That is why 2014 is ideal for me.
Why is Cameron trying to rush it?
It's not his decision to make, it's Scotlands.

But why does it depend on the SNP? Surely independence should be a good or bad thing in itself and who you vote into power is a separate issue?

Why is it just Scotland's decision though? I don't understand this. Ok, so the Scottish people can say they would like independence, but why shouldn't the Welsh, the English & the NI populations get a say in this too?
From a constitutional perspective, surely the UK is ultimately governed by the UK parliament & it will be up to them to decide?
Need more guidance please.

I would think its Scotland's decision because they are the one who wants to leave the Union. As a Scot, I wouldn't expect to be consulted if Wales wanted to leave.

NormanTebbit I don't think anyone in this thread associates sectarianism with the breed of nationalism the SNP promote- its clear they are trying to reach out to Catholics. Sectarianism is thankfully not what it was in Scotland (or indeed England) but it does still exist, so its an issue that's legitimate to discuss. Your hope that independence would reduce sectarianism is another example of a valid point to make about the connection between the issues.

I mentioned upthread the desire of some Scottish nationalists to encourage immigration, too, so its good to see you highlight immigrants. I think an independent Scotland would be sensible to have quite a wide criteria for citizenship, perhaps allowing anyone with a parent or even grandparent born in Scotland to have a passport. Another option would be to have a scheme where, in let's say the first 5 or 10 years of independence, anyone with a particular skillset or qualification that is in especial demand could be given citizenship, wherever they are from. The UK is making skilled migrants jump through more and more hoops, putting some of them off, so this would be a way for an independent Scotland to differentiate itself and get the people it needs.

So you want to hedge your bets?

If the SNP stuff up you want to remain in the union?

You either want independance or you dont. And then you use your vote to get the leaders you want.

I would hardly think having 18 months to the vote would be rushing it as plenty of time for the different parties to put across their agenda. It needs settling once and for all and if you leave it until 2014 we are just going to have 2.5 years of willie waving on both sides and could well destroy any reationship that england and scotland hopes to have in the furture.

agree, ladybeagleeyes, the SNP haven't been in power long enough, i want to see what their books are like before we let them have it their way.

also agree with normantebbit, it is frustrating that sectarianism has been brought up on this thread, but i suspect we will hear more of it between now and a vote as people seek to belittle scots and derail the discussion. and no, flange, i would have no idea that you are a historian, having never heard of you before. i am taking you purely on your posts here, which have been veh chippy indeed. just because you are phrasing your insults with care doesn't mean that everyone can't see them.

that's two questions, though, lesley. one. is independence a good thing? i should imagine 99% of Scots would say yes. two. should we become independent? hmmm. trickier. we would need to see the books and know who's going to be steering us through it.

it's a heart/head thing, i think. i'm inclined to say that if you asked a scot whether (with absolutely everything in place and a very good chance of success) they would rather be an independent country, the answer would be yes.

but redlac at the moment we are all one county. It is easy to say you wouldn't be interested if another bit of the country wanted to go & to be honest that is what I thought when I first thought about Scotland leaving. I thought, well good for you - off you go then. It is nothing to do with me. However, on reflection I think that is the road to apathy & allowing other people to make decisions for us.
Right now, the UK is a sovereign state in the form that it is & I think if an almighty great lump of it is going to no longer be part of it, then we should all have a say about that. Maybe I'd be all for it, or maybe I wouldn't be. But as part of the country that currently exists, I'd want to have a say.

It's not about 'hedging your bets', it's not a fucking gameshow.
Yes, for such a huge constitutional change, I will not just cast my vote willy nilly.
I will decide on what I think is best for Scotland be it independence or not.
And I'm sure there are many people like me, who look at the big picture and not just cast a vote because of some nationalistic fervour.

So you don't actually want to vote on independence then? You want to vote on do we want independence steered by the SNP?

Sorry Post you lost me on your first sentence - Scotland is a Country in its own right.

I didn't say I wouldn't be interested if another bit wanted to leave, I said I wouldn't expect to be consulted. It is not allowing other people to make decisions - its allowing Scottish people to make their OWN decision.

What would happen if Scotland voted yes and the rest voted No? THAT would be allowing other people to make decisions on Scotland's future.

We could get into the semantics of Scotland being its own country. I would consider it a nation with devolved powers, rather than a country. However, all that said & done it is part of the United Kingdom and as such it is ultimately subject to the over-arching power of the UK parliament.
Surely on something as significant as a part of the UK leaving, in a democratic society, everyone should have a say?

lesley? this isn't some uni debate, this is a real future of a real country... of course we need to know who will be in charge to steer us through the early years. this is getting a bit silly now, isn't it?

We have had nothing but minority goverments until the SNP got in with a huge majority last year.
And as they are the party that is steering us to independence, yes, I would like to see how we go for a couple of years.
I honestly don't know if Scotland can go it alone, I'm not a fervent nationalist, just a possible one.
Like Aitch said, I'd like to see the books.
I want what is best for Scotland, and at the moment a Tory government in Westminster with no Scottish representatives is not it.