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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find my dd hateful, and not be able to rise above the feeling?

110 replies

vidaloca · 09/01/2012 12:32

Have namechanged for this as I feel so ashamed.

DD is 12 and has been 'difficult' for about three years now. When I say 'difficult', I mean lazy, obstructive, aggressive and manipulative. That's when she isn't getting what she wants. When everything's going her way she's actually quite charming and funny, but as she grows older and we expect more of her, opportunities for conflict are multiplying to the point where family life is becoming really quite seriously unpleasant on most days, and the stress is taking its toll on my mental health and my marriage, and also on the health and happiness of my other two dc's.

The situation now is this. She won't voluntarily:
Do schoolwork
Go to bed when we tell her
Get up in the morning for school
Clear her plate from the table
Help with any housework or chores
Hang her coat up/put her uniform and school bag anywhere except in a crumpled heap on the floor
Tidy her room. All her clothes/books/bits and pieces, are in piles on the floor and under the bed
Or actually do anything we ask her to do if it doesn't suit her, without repeated requests, which are then met by rudeness, huffing and accusations of 'nagging'.

So far this probably sounds fairly unpleasant but typical 'tween' behaviour. I could tolerate it if this is all it was, even though it's exhausting and demoralising to have to keep telling a child to do things that they should be doing for themselves.

No - what's really destroying me is the fact that requests for her to help/get out of bed/go to bed/tidy her room, etc, are routinely met by indifference, stalling, rudeness and, eventually, aggression.

She also manipulates and stirs my younger 2 dc's up (ds's are 6 and 8) so that I have great difficulty managing their behaviour as well.

My youngest ds has aspergers and can be very difficult. He's tactless and can be obsessive and hard to divert when there is something he feel he needs to have or do. Obviously his behaviour can be hard to manage and I sympathise with dd for having to share our attention with a sibling who needs a lot of parental supervision, and tolerance from the whole family. But that is the way it is and we can't do anything about it other than try to accommodate his personality. DD refuses to make any allowances for his special needs. If he says something stupid or rude to her she pounces on it instead of ignoring it, arguing with him to the point where he'll explode - and over nothing most of the time. If she's bored in the car she'll subtly wind him up until they end up hitting each other. Almost EVERY journey with them is torture for me at the moment because of this, and I'm scared I'll end up crashing the car one day with them fighting on the back seat.

She constantly accuses me of favouring him and treating him differently from her and my middle dc, of not punishing him enough. Well - I do try to address his behaviour if he's aggressive or rude, but I can't pick him up on EVERYTHING because it simply isn't possible to do this and get from one end of the day to another holding body and soul together. I've explained this to her, and explained to her that he has difficulty with controlling his impulses, and also that he isn't able to read people's feelings in the same way that she or the rest of us do, and that as a family we have to try to find a way of dealing with this. Her response is to say that everything is my fault, that she has a friend who has 2 brothers with autism who manages much better than me. It's because I'm a 'crap mother' apparently, and 'everyone says so'. Sad

She's physically quite aggressive with the boys, although I never see her do it. She always insists that it's an accident - her hand or foot slipped, but I know she's slapped them around the face or head on many, many occasions. She also pulls faces and sniggers at them when I'm telling her or them off, so that my attempts at discipline are done against a background of their laughter. This is a new thing - and when she did it this week I lost my temper and told her that the way she was behaving me me feel so angry that I felt like picking her dinner plate up and cracking it over her head. Obviously that was a stupid and totally out of order thing to say, and I'd never do it. But she took that comment and ran with it. She overturned her plate on the table cloth and walked off screaming abuse. She shouted at me that how dare I threaten to break a plate over her head. When I tried to point out that I hadn't threatened to do this, but that she had made me feel like I wanted to do it she stuck her fingers in her ears and shouted 'shut up, shut up', only taking them out of her ears to shout more abuse at me. I managed to calm the situation down enough to get everyone ready for bed, then went off to work after DH came back.

Last night another horrible scene. She marched over to me and told me to get her blazer out of the washing machine and dry it. I told her I was busy and that she had to do it. After a five minute argument she went downstairs and roughly pulled it out of the machine, along with half the rest of the clean wet washing, which she left lying on the kitchen floor. I politely asked her to pick the washing up and put it back in the machine. Her response was 'no. Are you going to try to make me then? If you touch me I'll call the police'. I repeated calmly that she should put the washing back in the machine. She then came right up to me, invading my personal space and stared in my face with her arms crossed - said she wasn't going to do it.

I walked away as it was clear to me that we'd crossed a line and that I didn't have anywhere to turn. Told DH who (again - calmly) went in and told her to go to bed straight away. It was about 8.30pm by this point. She took her wet blazer upstairs into the office room where we keep the dryer, but instead of then going to bed she just stood in my office, touching one of the tools I use for work. I told her to go to bed and to put my tool down. She ignored me and went to walk out with it. I asked her politely and firmly to give it to me, and eventually just took it out of her hands with a bit of a struggle, as she refused to let go of it. She walked ahead of me down the hallway, saying 'why are you following me' (I wasn't, I was going back downstairs), then as she got to the end of the hallway kicked a bin which was standing there waiting to be emptied. The contents went all over the floor. I told her to pick the rubbish up and put it back in the bin, and once again she outright refused, just smirking at me with her arms crossed.

At which point I completely lost the plot, grabbed her pyjama top, pulled her down towards the rubbish and bellowed 'PICK IT UP!', about 5 times. When she pulled away and shouted back at me, I pushed the bin and the rubbish into her room and said that if she didn't want to pick it up, she could have it on her floor so that the rest of us didn't have to step over the mess.

I was shaking all over and mortified at having lost my temper. DH came up from downstairs, calmly made her go into her room and I went off and sat in the kitchen with a cup of tea and 15 slices of toast. This morning she blanked me and deliberately went off to school without her packed lunch.

I'm shitting myself for her coming back from school. I found her behaviour last night intimidating and horrible and I just don't know what to do.

I'm worn out with all the arguing and the conflict. And over - what?

Our family life should be great - we have lovely extended family, a decent home, enough money coming in, our health and each other. DH and I are ok - we don't argue, but the stress of managing our children's behaviour IS a strain on our marriage because we are both so tired and sad about it.

And last night I had this thought: "only another 6 years to go and then she can move out". Sad That's just so wrong. We should be enjoying our children, not constantly, constantly battling with them over every day life.

And the worst of it is that I'm blaming myself all the time - I feel so inadequate as a parent. And I think everyone else blames me as well. I feel like I've not been tough enough with them in the past, that I haven't instilled good habits and now they're going to grow up lazy, rude and helpless. Sad

And the guilt is making me resent dd SO much.

Sorry for epic post by the way. Well done to anyone who's got this far.

OP posts:
OrmIrian · 09/01/2012 12:37

Could she be jealous? A child with aspergers requires a lot of attention.

ChitChatInChaos · 09/01/2012 12:39

OP, I have no real advice on how to deal with this, but ... have you considered that maybe your DD is on the autistic spectrum as well? Girls don't get diagnosed as easily as boys, as they can 'mimic' behaviour in an attempt to fit in, but don't really 'get it' as it were, and often feel left out and alienated.

If that's the case (and clearly that's a big if) then that could be why she is finding everything so overwhelming and reacting to everything.

Stay strong, hold onto the thought that she's reacting this way with you because she trusts you to always be there. Sucks though.

winnybella · 09/01/2012 12:39

Oh my, poor you Sad
I have to run, so will be short, but what are you rmethods of discipline? You haven't written about how you punished her for the vile behaviour. While having good relationship with DC and being supportive and understanding of the difficulty of dealing with teenage hormones etc etc is important, the behaviour you described would earn my DC removal of all priviledges immediately, tbh. Plus I would take away any trips etc that they were about to have if they continued.

winnybella · 09/01/2012 12:40

ChitChat has a good point about Asperger's.

Kladdkaka · 09/01/2012 12:43

My daughter has Asperger's. I thought I must have written this in my sleep. I completely blew a gasket yesterday having reached the end of my tether with her. Defiance personified. I feel for you.

FreudianSlipper · 09/01/2012 12:43

please do not blame yourself

she is not being very nice and she knows it, but why she probaby is not sure herself but she has told you she feels you favour the younger two, i am not saying you do at all but this is how she feels. could you spend some time alone with her maybe go to the cinema then a coffee after, she will probably grumble and moan all the time but it is time for you and her and maybe this is what she is missing and needing

PopcornMouse · 09/01/2012 12:44

Oh gosh OP, you sound like you have it really rough atm. :(

I don't have much to contribute, I'm afraid, but you have said she finds the difference in treatment between herself and her brother very unfair, and perhaps this is why she acts out? I haven't a clue how to address that, however - perhaps other MNers with more experience can help.

Hassled · 09/01/2012 12:45

Firstly - stop blaming yourself. You need whatever self-esteem you have left; hang on to it. She will chip away and you'll be left floundering and doubting everything - but you're the adult here. Don't lose sight of that.

I think you losing it last night was probably a very good thing. She's been testing the boundaries and then testing them some more - now she knows you have a tipping point. And the firm boundaries will give her some security.

Has she started her periods yet? How is she re friends etc - any problems there? What's her behaviour like at school - trouble there or is she doing the angel at school/witch at home thing (trademarked by my DD)?

Do you spend any quality time alone together? Any chance of just you and her going to the cinema sometime? Those glimpses of the nice girl you used to have will keep you going through the grim times.

And what sanctions are you using? Have you tried something like pocket money being linked to behaviour? I used to dole out the cash on a Sunday, with 50ps or whatever deducted for each "episode" - so they'd start the week expecting a fiver and end up with £1.50 or whatever actually given to them. And if it went over the £5 then they'd owe me out of the next week's money. It worked well - money is a good motivator when you're 12.

All I can really say is that you're not alone - my (now lovely, adult) DD was the reason I joined MN. She could push all the right buttons, she could reduce me to tears, she was manipulative and aggressive to younger siblings, and all the rest of it. I loved her, but for years struggled to like her. The clear boundaries and sanctions certainly helped, but ultimately she sorted herself out when she became happier, and a lot of that was out of my control. What she needed was maturity, and I couldn't make her be mature. FWIW, we have a strong, good relationship now.

vidaloca · 09/01/2012 12:47

ChitChat - she's never, ever had a problem with friendships or relationships outside of immediate family in the last few years. She has MASSES of friends at school and always has had. She's popular to the point that when she was in infants taking her into school was like hanging out with a celebrity - all the other children greeting her and calling out her name. She knew everyone and everyone knew her. She keeps her friends too. Her two best friends she's known since she was 3. Actually the word 'charming' is the one which is most used to describe her by people who don't know her well. I'd be amazed if she was so smart she could keep such a sophisticated act going year in year out, without being rumbled if she really did have issues with social communication.

How have we dealt with past poor behaviour? Grounding - 4 weeks of it for the last episode of really unpleasant behaviour. Facebook is permanently blocked at home. We've taken her lap-top and phone away for days at a time. She gets sent to bed early. She can't have friends around. We threaten these punishments and we see them through.

OP posts:
Sparkletastic · 09/01/2012 12:48

Well establishing why she's behaving like this is one thing and then how to handle it is another. It very likely is jealousy but do you feel you and she could go somewhere just the two of you for lunch or whatever and discuss it? Ask her if she can tell you why she thinks you aren't getting on very well - give her the chance to explain herself maturely if she can. If she can't and tries instead to blame you for everything or make excuses then instead turn the conversation to how you are going to deal with it from now on. Does she get pocket money or an allowance and does she ( and other DCs) have their own set chores? My girls are much younger but are already motivated by rewards / out of school interests and will behave / keep rooms tidy etc to earn them.

And stop feeling guilty - you sound at the end of your tether and I would have behaved exactly like you in the face of all this provocation. It isn't wrong to lose your temper and get angry - sometimes it is inevitable. The downside is it feeds her bad behaviour. Sounds like you and your DH are doing a great job of being a united front and tag- team parenting when you need to. Decide on your plan of action together and don't let her divide you.

Finally - and easier said than done - can you find something to do with your DD that you both enjoy and try and show her that you love her, however awful her behaviour is? She may be pushing you to the edge just to get your attention even if it is negative.

Sparkletastic · 09/01/2012 12:50

Too slow posting - all been said before!

Sparkletastic · 09/01/2012 12:51

All the punishments sound negative - any incentives tried.

pranma · 09/01/2012 12:54

I do sympathise as we had a less extreme but similar situation. My dd's best trick was to run away and hide late at night so we all walked the streets looking for her. Once we called the police and she walked in as they arrived saying,'I said I was going to x's house!' Obviously she hadn't. What we did was to make her earn back all privileges-basic food and clothing were supplied and she was never aske or told to do anything. We spoke pleasantly to her if she spoke to us. Uneaten food-in the bin-clothes on floor left on floor-dont get up stay put miss school(we told them what we were doing and asked them to be hard on lateness/truancy) same with homework.No pocket money or in room TV etc. However whenever she did even a little nice thing like clear her plate from table or put clean washing away she was rewarded with something nice. It was two weeks of hell. She is now every mother's dream daughter and is a wonderful mum herself.

vidaloca · 09/01/2012 12:54

"Has she started her periods yet?"

No - and she's a seething mass of hormones. I can see that. She's got a massive bust, hair everywhere, spots etc. God knows why she hasn't started her periods yet. She weighs nearly 9 stone as well.

"How is she re friends etc - any problems there? What's her behaviour like at school - trouble there or is she doing the angel at school/witch at home thing (trademarked by my DD)?"

She's in top sets for everything at school - just about gets away with doing no work by being very clever and always having her hand up in class. But that won't last - GCSE coursework won't do itself, so she's going to come a cropper next year when she moves into year 9. Her tutor thinks she's LOVELY. Her English teacher thinks she's LOVELY. Everyone else thinks she's a fucking rude pain in the arse because she answers back in class and argues with the teachers if they tell her off or give her detentions (which are a regular feature of her life because she won't do her homework).

She has the usual struggles with friendships - lots of falling in and out with friends, although the best friends have been around for a long time.

Hassled - good to hear about your DD. Smile

I'm frightened what's going on between me and dd now will permanently ruin our relationship. I can't like her at the moment, and don't want to spend time with her. Sad

OP posts:
CailinDana · 09/01/2012 12:55

If she's quite smart and clued in she might be feeling a huge strain because of her younger brother's ASD. Could you sit down with her and talk to her calmly about what's going on with her? Her behaviour seems quite extreme and IME no one behaves like that without some quite serious emotional reason. It sounds to me like she's seen you letting your younger son "get away" with things, pushed boundaries, been treated more harshly, hit puberty, and got herself in a rut of bad behaviour where her hormones caused her to push it too far a few times and now everyone overreacts to the slightest thing. I think it might be time to wipe the slate clean for her, start a campaign of positivity and hope that you can pull her out of this dark time.

whoneedssleepanyway · 09/01/2012 12:57

I was going to suggest Pranma's approach...I really feel for you it sounds horrendous.

vidaloca · 09/01/2012 12:57

pranma - I like your strategy with your dd. Sounds very workable.

Funnily enough can see dd as a mum one day. She's AMAZING with children and babies. Except her own brothers of course. Grin

OP posts:
CailinDana · 09/01/2012 12:58

I've just read pranma's post and I think her approach is inspired.

ivykaty44 · 09/01/2012 13:00

half your list of things she will not do - half it for priority (don't tell her) and lessen your stress

bed on time
homework

stop being polite and by that I mean stop saying please when you ask her to do something, this isn't impolite not saying thank you would be impolite and you must say thank you but never say please as it is not a favour but expected behaviour and that is why you mustn't say please when you ask her to do something.

If she wants to tell you about how to bring up your other two children/her siblings - tell her to talk tot he hand and don't utter another word. Don't argue (why would you argue over your parenting style with a child) easy to get drawn in but you need to detach.

It really sounds like you have your hands full and are at the end o your tether - it will get better but you need to stop talking at the moment as this leads to rows and arguements which is giving her the attention she wants. So don't engage.

Ok so she refuses to put the washing in the machine or a basket - count to ten and then do it yourself, she has done it to get your attention and so by stopping giving her the attention it will get her know where.

When she is pleasant then give her lots of attention and be a little gushing, not full blown gushing but a little.

olgaga · 09/01/2012 13:00

Feel very sad for you OP, it's so hard and thankless when it's like this. I think she's testing you and trying to wrench your attention her way, in the only way she knows how.

I think Sparkletastic is on to something with the suggestion about finding something you can do together, just the two of you - preferably going out to do it, where there are no other home distractions. What are her interests? Perhaps try to develop some different activity?

Obviously this will need a bit of organisation and co-operation from everyone, but it's worth a try.

squeakytoy · 09/01/2012 13:02

Are you going to try to make me then? If you touch me I'll call the police'.

That ^^ sadly is the entitled and disrespectful attitude that has been adopted by so many kids now, who know that their parents are not going to give them a smacked arse.

I was a shit to my mother when I was your daughters age OP.. I was full of attitude, I was lazy, I was hormonal, I was cheeky, I was hell to live with and looking back now at the age of 42 I can see it.

However, there was a line, and always had been, and if I crossed it, I knew without doubt that I would feel the sharp sting of my mothers hand and I actually didnt like that very much, so I knew how far I could push it before I stopped. Never in a million years would I have threatened my parents with the police for them punishing my horrendous behaviour. I had respect for my parents, and although I could be extremely horrible to live with, I knew how far I could go before I got a slap.

I dont consider myself as being an abused kid.. I didnt get slapped or knocked around for trivial stuff.. in fact I rarely did get a smack, because I knew that if my mum threatened it, she WOULD do it if I carried on. Therefore I didnt carry on.

I am not sure what you can do with her, because she has the upper hand.

hiddenhome · 09/01/2012 13:02

I could have written this about ds1 who has aspergers traits and adhd.

I handle him by being ultra assertive and ultra confident (even if I don't feel like it, I just bullshit my way through). He responds to having his stuff taken away and being made to sit somewhere boring in order to calm down - bottom of the stairs generally does it. I also restrict the stuff he eats/drinks because he reacts to some of that.

I was told by a psychologist never to show emotion as these kinds of kids thrive on knowing they've upset you and wound you up. This is why she's hurting her siblings. Try to remain calm, dole out punishment quite cold heartedly and matter of factly, but do try to spend some one to one time with her and try to cultivate some positive experiences together otherwise life will be just awful.

She's probably realising that she's growing up and wants to remain as a baby because then she'll get looked after. I have forced my ds1 to take responsibility for his uniform, packed lunches etc. and he is slowly doing it. He does argue back and is resistant as well, but I calmly persist and let him know who's boss. I let him face the consequences for his actions like letting him get into trouble for not doing homework rather than nagging him to do it.

You need to treat them like dogs - reward the good, but take no crap and come down on them like a ton of bricks for the bad stuff. It takes time. We receive no treatment or guidance for ds1 and we just find our own way of handling him. He's never going to be quite right, but he's a lot better than he used to be.

There's no magic formula. Perhaps if you're struggling very badly, you could consider some family counselling.

I have ended up taking antidepressants to help me cope and they've been a Godsend tbh. I can handle things much easier now and can think things through rather than losing my temper, which I was doing all the time before.

BarfAndHeave · 09/01/2012 13:05

Sympathies as I also have a child with ASD, but you're right that its no excuse for her behaviour.

I'm with pranma on this one - there have to be consequences to her actions (other than you getting cross) and she has to earn things back.

Start off with some house rules so you are all clear about what you expect and take it from there.

Chocolategirl3 · 09/01/2012 13:05

Apart from my DD not having siblings, your daughter could be mine and your reactions could be me. I am relieved that it is not just me having issues with my DD. In the past i have sat my DD down and explained how bad her behaviour is and how it makes me feel, she in turn tells me from her point of view and we come to a happy medium for a while before it all kicks off again. Sorry I cant offer much help but will be looking at the responses on this thread to see if there is anything that can help me too x

squeakytoy · 09/01/2012 13:05

When she is pleasant then give her lots of attention and be a little gushing, not full blown gushing but a little

I am afraid I would disagree with that. Being pleasant should be normal, not something that gets met with loads of attention and gratitude.

One of the things that would hurt me and make me think a bit when I was that age was being given the cold shoulder. My mum would say "why should I be nice to you now after you have been so horrible to me". That was effective.