To find my dd hateful, and not be able to rise above the feeling?

[vidaloca]

Have namechanged for this as I feel so ashamed.

DD is 12 and has been 'difficult' for about three years now. When I say 'difficult', I mean lazy, obstructive, aggressive and manipulative. That's when she isn't getting what she wants. When everything's going her way she's actually quite charming and funny, but as she grows older and we expect more of her, opportunities for conflict are multiplying to the point where family life is becoming really quite seriously unpleasant on most days, and the stress is taking its toll on my mental health and my marriage, and also on the health and happiness of my other two dc's.

The situation now is this. She won't voluntarily:
Do schoolwork
Go to bed when we tell her
Get up in the morning for school
Clear her plate from the table
Help with any housework or chores
Hang her coat up/put her uniform and school bag anywhere except in a crumpled heap on the floor
Tidy her room. All her clothes/books/bits and pieces, are in piles on the floor and under the bed
Or actually do anything we ask her to do if it doesn't suit her, without repeated requests, which are then met by rudeness, huffing and accusations of 'nagging'.

So far this probably sounds fairly unpleasant but typical 'tween' behaviour. I could tolerate it if this is all it was, even though it's exhausting and demoralising to have to keep telling a child to do things that they should be doing for themselves.

No - what's really destroying me is the fact that requests for her to help/get out of bed/go to bed/tidy her room, etc, are routinely met by indifference, stalling, rudeness and, eventually, aggression.

She also manipulates and stirs my younger 2 dc's up (ds's are 6 and 8) so that I have great difficulty managing their behaviour as well.

My youngest ds has aspergers and can be very difficult. He's tactless and can be obsessive and hard to divert when there is something he feel he needs to have or do. Obviously his behaviour can be hard to manage and I sympathise with dd for having to share our attention with a sibling who needs a lot of parental supervision, and tolerance from the whole family. But that is the way it is and we can't do anything about it other than try to accommodate his personality. DD refuses to make any allowances for his special needs. If he says something stupid or rude to her she pounces on it instead of ignoring it, arguing with him to the point where he'll explode - and over nothing most of the time. If she's bored in the car she'll subtly wind him up until they end up hitting each other. Almost EVERY journey with them is torture for me at the moment because of this, and I'm scared I'll end up crashing the car one day with them fighting on the back seat.

She constantly accuses me of favouring him and treating him differently from her and my middle dc, of not punishing him enough. Well - I do try to address his behaviour if he's aggressive or rude, but I can't pick him up on EVERYTHING because it simply isn't possible to do this and get from one end of the day to another holding body and soul together. I've explained this to her, and explained to her that he has difficulty with controlling his impulses, and also that he isn't able to read people's feelings in the same way that she or the rest of us do, and that as a family we have to try to find a way of dealing with this. Her response is to say that everything is my fault, that she has a friend who has 2 brothers with autism who manages much better than me. It's because I'm a 'crap mother' apparently, and 'everyone says so'.

She's physically quite aggressive with the boys, although I never see her do it. She always insists that it's an accident - her hand or foot slipped, but I know she's slapped them around the face or head on many, many occasions. She also pulls faces and sniggers at them when I'm telling her or them off, so that my attempts at discipline are done against a background of their laughter. This is a new thing - and when she did it this week I lost my temper and told her that the way she was behaving me me feel so angry that I felt like picking her dinner plate up and cracking it over her head. Obviously that was a stupid and totally out of order thing to say, and I'd never do it. But she took that comment and ran with it. She overturned her plate on the table cloth and walked off screaming abuse. She shouted at me that how dare I threaten to break a plate over her head. When I tried to point out that I hadn't threatened to do this, but that she had made me feel like I wanted to do it she stuck her fingers in her ears and shouted 'shut up, shut up', only taking them out of her ears to shout more abuse at me. I managed to calm the situation down enough to get everyone ready for bed, then went off to work after DH came back.

Last night another horrible scene. She marched over to me and told me to get her blazer out of the washing machine and dry it. I told her I was busy and that she had to do it. After a five minute argument she went downstairs and roughly pulled it out of the machine, along with half the rest of the clean wet washing, which she left lying on the kitchen floor. I politely asked her to pick the washing up and put it back in the machine. Her response was 'no. Are you going to try to make me then? If you touch me I'll call the police'. I repeated calmly that she should put the washing back in the machine. She then came right up to me, invading my personal space and stared in my face with her arms crossed - said she wasn't going to do it.

I walked away as it was clear to me that we'd crossed a line and that I didn't have anywhere to turn. Told DH who (again - calmly) went in and told her to go to bed straight away. It was about 8.30pm by this point. She took her wet blazer upstairs into the office room where we keep the dryer, but instead of then going to bed she just stood in my office, touching one of the tools I use for work. I told her to go to bed and to put my tool down. She ignored me and went to walk out with it. I asked her politely and firmly to give it to me, and eventually just took it out of her hands with a bit of a struggle, as she refused to let go of it. She walked ahead of me down the hallway, saying 'why are you following me' (I wasn't, I was going back downstairs), then as she got to the end of the hallway kicked a bin which was standing there waiting to be emptied. The contents went all over the floor. I told her to pick the rubbish up and put it back in the bin, and once again she outright refused, just smirking at me with her arms crossed.

At which point I completely lost the plot, grabbed her pyjama top, pulled her down towards the rubbish and bellowed 'PICK IT UP!', about 5 times. When she pulled away and shouted back at me, I pushed the bin and the rubbish into her room and said that if she didn't want to pick it up, she could have it on her floor so that the rest of us didn't have to step over the mess.

I was shaking all over and mortified at having lost my temper. DH came up from downstairs, calmly made her go into her room and I went off and sat in the kitchen with a cup of tea and 15 slices of toast. This morning she blanked me and deliberately went off to school without her packed lunch.

I'm shitting myself for her coming back from school. I found her behaviour last night intimidating and horrible and I just don't know what to do.

I'm worn out with all the arguing and the conflict. And over - what?

Our family life should be great - we have lovely extended family, a decent home, enough money coming in, our health and each other. DH and I are ok - we don't argue, but the stress of managing our children's behaviour IS a strain on our marriage because we are both so tired and sad about it.

And last night I had this thought: "only another 6 years to go and then she can move out". That's just so wrong. We should be enjoying our children, not constantly, constantly battling with them over every day life.

And the worst of it is that I'm blaming myself all the time - I feel so inadequate as a parent. And I think everyone else blames me as well. I feel like I've not been tough enough with them in the past, that I haven't instilled good habits and now they're going to grow up lazy, rude and helpless.

And the guilt is making me resent dd SO much.

Sorry for epic post by the way. Well done to anyone who's got this far.

squeakytoy - did your mum give you the cold shoulder when you where being nice to her?

I know nothing about dealing with Aspergers, but assuming she hasn't got it, I would try the following:

1.Pick your battles. To me, getting up for school is the top priority, closely followed by doing school work. Concentrate on these and ignore everything else.

1. Try and instigate a calm talk with her. Start by apologising for pulling her about, which, while understandable, would certainly get my gander up. Tell her how much you love her. Follow up by discussing basic standards of politeness around the place. Tell her she can do her own washing and ironing, and is responsible for her own room. Try and ignore her going off to school in skanky clothes, and living in a pig tip. Try and talk to her like a rational adult.

1. Do not allow any subsequent pieces of rudeness to go unchallenged. If she wants to be treated like an adult, she has to try and behave like one. If she doesn't want to play ball, start removing privileges eg mobile phone, access to computers and TV, lifts to social events, pocket money (in fact it's worth giving pocket money so that you have something extra to remove). I never had to go further than this with DS1, who went through a difficult stage. I also made him earn back his privileges one by one - in fact we had quite a complex spreadsheet of what he had to do for each privilege to be restored, which suited him, but might be over analytical for others. He had nothing to do except read books - I didn't even allow him to lie on his bed all day and nap. I also told him that if he carried on with his bad behaviour, I would remove all his fashionable clothes, and also his privacy (by removing his bedroom door).

1. Try and deal calmly with her, and in private. Don't let her have her little siblings as an audience. Walk away if she kicks off. Warn her calmly if you are going to start removing privileges. Give her a chance to change her behaviour, which won't be easy for her. Parental influence is more like water wearing away a stone at this age. You won't get immediate results.

1. Make sure your DH is on board, and also doesn't tolerate any of her nonsense, or undermine you behind your back.

1. If there are parenting courses for parents of teens that you can access, book yourself a place on one. At the very least, you will realise you are not alone. Try your DD's school, and your Health Visitors.

I realise in retrospect how lucky I was that DS1 decided not to carry on challenging me. There was a point when I really think it could have gone either way. I hope you manage to build a successful relationship with your DD. I really do. It's horrible when one of the people that you love more than anyone in the world behaves like a complete shit to you.

Oh bugger. Cross posted with about a zillion other people.

squeakytoy - I have raised a hand to her twice in the past few years, but have vowed I will NEVER do it again.

I felt completely degraded and shocked by the experience and it made her behaviour worse.

If I hit her now she would hit me back, or harm herself, or run away. Or both.

hiddenhome - I think you are right that I must 'man up' and show her that I can be strong. Am trying hard to look after myself physically and emotionally to make being strong easier.

Another vote here for pranmas approach.
Take everything away from her. Give her an alarm clock and set it for when she needs to get up. Tell her you will not get her up, if she's late she deals with the consequences.
No phone, no tv in room, no favourite meals etc.
If she drops rubbish, put it in her room. If she leaves clothes lying around, don't wash them if she won't put them into wash basket. If clothes are clean and ironed and she dumps them on the floor ( like my 15yrold dd) then she wears creased clothes.
Don't worry people will think your not ironing etc, only her friends will see her crumpled look.
Speak to school, get them on board.
Feed her basic foods, if she wants crisps/ sweets, then she earns them.
Choose your battles. If she won't help round the house, then she hs no pocket money and no treats.
Explain your sons asd to her, try to talk to her like another adult...see if she appreciates that? Tell her she is not a child ( as in a baby) and you want to treat her respectively but it needs to be a 2 way street.

I just showed this to DD who has popped round (she is teaching part time while her DC are little). She remembers the time well. She says that being shouted at or fought with was almost exciting and she saw the whole situation as a game which she could win. As soon as I stopped playing her game it lost its appeal and she just wanted to be friends. In mitigation she was playing up about a year after her dad had died and I was maybe less aware of her needs than I should have been.

No - thankyou OneHand, your post is REALLY helpful!

I particularly appreciate your idea of removing the door from a dc's bedroom as a punishment for unpleasant behaviour. That's ........ wicked in every sense of the word....

My sister had this from both my nieces, she had it until they were in excess of 17 years old.

They used to call her a slag, throw her clothes out the bedroom window etc.,

When they were nice they were great, but those times were few and far bewteen.

Now they are 23 and 21 they get on great with their mother, sometimes it's just girls, that's why I'm glad I never had any.

Sorry cannot offer advice other than to threaten to have her put in care until she realises how easy it is for her at home.

I have also got caught up in the "argument" at times when emotions are running high but have learnt to step back. State your expectations calmly and the consequences if the behaviour is not carried out. There can only be an argument/battle if two parties are involved. Be calm, say what you want to happen and what will happen if things are not done as expected. This will infuriate your teen and they will up the ante at first but keep repeating yourself calmly and they will learn you mean what you say. This was also a major learning curve for me when DD started secondary school. Don't argue.

Your list at the beginning though sounds very familiar!!! and will do to most parents of teens! Link your "must have" behaviour to pocket money and try to ignore the small stuff. Praise when appropriate.

They do all seem to have a major sense of entitlement at this age though and i've had to remove pocket money, ability to do extra jobs for money etc to ensure that she learns the hard way that life is no fun without money/rewards/treats. Sometimes it has astounded me that it hurts me more than her when she misses out on a trip with friends etc as she hasn't even taken up the option to earn it back (albeit doing the original thing but also with an additional chore etc). This has made me realise that they need this tough love even more. I don't want a spoilt, entitled child any more than you do. Nothing teaches better than pain!(not in a physical sense though).

I also make an effort to try be really positive and do nice things together when behaviour is good( time alone with you will be a great reward - given your DD jealousy of your DS) and try to let her do somethings that only she can do because she is "older" than her brothers.

Good luck. Stick with it. I still get drawn into the argument but now think "what am I doing" and back off. Say "I'm not arguing - this is what i expect you to do or this will happen" Give a time limit for it to happen. Only use something as a consequence that you are willing to carry out and be consistent.

I think you need to adjust your expectations. You are not necessarily supposed to 'enjoy' your children. You are supposed to nurture, guide, teach and help them into becoming healthy, responsible and caring adults.

squeakytoy - did your mum give you the cold shoulder when you where being nice to her?

When she knew I was doing it just so I could manipulate something, yes. If it was just after I had been being the teen from hell, yes. I know how horrendous I was, and I could be really spiteful and nasty to her. So I dont blame her at all for it.

Agreeing with chitchat. I don't know how old your DS with aspergers is, but I suspect you have developed ways of responding to his negative behaviours and of averting them. Both of my DSs have ASD and one of them has ADHD and is extremely oppositional, too and reacts much like your DD to ordinary attempts at discipline. We have to find ways of making him feel like doing something we need him to do is his idea and be very firm and consistent with him while trying not to be confrontational - as soon as we get confrontational with him, we know it'll just descend into a shouting match and everyone gets upset.

So, we have to make sure there's clear reasons to do something and clear consequences if he doesn't. Sometimes he's very bouncy and paces and stands on everything and bumps into things after dinner. The reason we need him to stop this, apart form it being so annoying you could explode, is that things get broken and people get hurt. The consequence if he doesn't make every effort to occupy himself constructively and stop pacing is that we will send him to bed at the same time as DS2 because he is obviously too tired. An early teeth clean tends to be all it takes to reinforce that message.

I'm assuming that you analyse situations like this for your DS. Why not try to do this with your DD, as well. Put the ball in her court for her to make the choice about what happens next. It's treating her with a lot more respect and giving her back some of the power and autonomy she's probably seeking.

My brother was like this as I was growing up. So aggressive and he just used to wind everybody up and sit back and watch the mayhem. He did not give a shit about anyone. But most of his teachers thought he was lovely and my Grandparents thought the sun shone out of his arse.

My parents were quite zero tolerance with him (he was over 6 foot tall at 15 so very intimidating) and when he did the "I can't wait to leave" my Mum would say "We can't wait either. Do you think at 18 I won't pack up all of your stuff and throw you out? You keep acting the way you do and I will. I'm under no obligation to have you here then." When he was a teen, my GP's sided with my brother she packed up his stuff and told him to leave. He didn't, he hid in his room for 2 days.

Now he is 34 and a parent himself and a lovely, lovely person. I would do anything for him. The person your daughter is now is no indication of the adult she will become. She will mature, she will also go out in to the world and meet people who will not put up with that behaviour.

But you need to deal with her now before she gets way out of control. I think Pranma's idea is fantastic, you can explain the rules to her and if she wants to stay in your home she has to follow them. Can you video her having a tantrum and show it to her? Harsh, but it might be an eye opener for her to realise what she looks like.

OP no concrete advice - I've read a fair bit of advice I agree with on here.

One question did occur to me though. You've said in your OP that you 'politely' ask her to do things. Do you think that your 'politeness' might be coming across to her as 'not assertive'?

I'm not claiming to be an expert and don't promise the following will work, but it might be worth a go.

One of the things we do in schools with children who are not naturally predisposed to following polite requests is to present them as instructions. Clear instructions so, for example:

"I am busy. I need to to take your blazer from the washing machine"

Stroppy response.

"I have told you. I am busy. I need you to take your blazer from the washing machine"

Stroppier response including threats

"I understand that you don't want to do it/think I should do it/are refusing to do it. But you need your blazer for tomorrow and I am busy atm"

Refusal.

"Ok. But if you don't take it out, then you will have to explain to school why you are not wearing it"

Reluctant acceptance.

"Thank you. Oh, if any other clothes fall out, put them back in the machine, thank you."

If she does, thank her, if she doesn't call back and repeat.

Also, as far as lavishing praise on her for being good, that's not necessary, but follow the 'catch her being good' - so "I saw that you had..... thank you for doing that, it meant that I could........."

And sanctions. If you do X then Y will happen. And make damn sure it does. That way you can say "I understand that you don't want to do X, but if you choose not to then Y will happen".

If she says that's "not fair" etc you can say "I understand that you think it isn't fair, but that is the rule and you know that. It is up to you what you choose to do."

I had a very easy DS, who is now a teenager...

I have a 5 year old DD and we take this approach with her as she has a much 'stronger' personality.

Wow huge post!

Somehow you need to maintain a relationship with her. I know this is easier said than done- been there -got the T shirt.
Can you get someone to look after the younger ones for a couple of hours so that you and your husband can talk to her?
Plan the conversation first with your husband. Get it all out in the open and get her involved in a plan to make things better for all of you. She must be very unhappy too.
She does seem as though she needs to spend some quality time with mum.This should be a regular time each week that is for her to decide how it should be spent not something to stopped if she is naughty. Also not to be used as nagging time. Agree with her on rewards for good behaviour and acts of kindness , and what should happen if she is not good, negotiate a proper bedtime and let her decide somethings so she feels she is involved. Agree with her that her brother is difficult but that is something beyond your control. Can she sit in the front of the car when they are traveling together? Just tackle a few things, the ones that will make your home life happier and make a plan, are there things she would like you to change in return?. Keep posting and make sure you get support from somewhere to talk things through. Remember tomorrow is always another day and this time will pass, one day she will be a lovely supportive adult that you are proud of, they all grow up!

It's an awful situation for you.

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but just as it's awful for you, it's awful for her, too. She must be going crazy with emotions charging around her at the moment. She knows she's being a cow to you. She knows you deserve better. She knows it's only recently that she was lovely to you.

We all know that when we're vile to someone without good reason, we feel awful. We try to justify it to ourselves, try to persuade ourselves the other person deserved it, but we know deep down they didn't and that it's our fault. She has those feelings x 1,000.

I would be looking at taking her to the doctor and speaking to him/her about her moods. I'd say, "Listen, sweetheart (gritted teeth), you are clearly very hormonal and the way you're acting, you'll end up with no qualifications and with a terrible relationship with your family. I'm going to book you in with the doctor for a check up. You should have started your periods by now and I think all these hormones are making you very unhappy."

You may find she's started and hasn't told you.

When she screams in response to this, say, "No, you're my daughter and I love you. You're clearly very unhappy and I want to get it sorted. We'll go by whatever the doctor says."

Then prime the doctor in advance.

I would stress her unhappiness rather than her behaviour. If a toddler screams and cries and throws things around, we assume she's tired or unwell. It's the same for her.

I do feel for you.

Just a little thing, which I have found helpful with my dc, is to avoid telling one of them off in the presence of the others. I tend to take them to a different room, where they don't have an audience to show off to. It also removes them from being in a situation where a sibling is taking the piss/laughing and winding them up while you're dealing with them. When that happens you have to split your attention and end up with two kids to tell off.

all that in the OP, from the kids bickering in the car, to saying mum you favour him over me, is done by every single kid in the country, nay the world i dare say

thats the joys of being a mum

oh and i would suggest a good wallop next time she backchats you

she wont be so keen the next time believe me

Agree with IB, and in fact she does sound very unhappy. I was actually very difficult as a teenager, and was later diagnosed with aspergers- it is very, very overlooked in girls, and given you have one child with it, it is much more likely in this case. Girls with ASD can adapt socially a lot better, but still feel overwhelmed by social demands and noise etc so often get labelled as 'bad' when a boy doing the same with the same level of ASD would be treated sympathetically. Also wrt her thinking you favour the child who has it, and her noticing when he says inappropriate things to her, actually the way she feels about that is not really unreasonable and you could see about getting some young carers type support for that, although really you do need to try and percieve her as having equal difficulties to your ASD-diagnosed son. I thought my mother favoured my sister as a child, and I still feel the difference between how she treated us was unfair, from an adult perspective, so that may not be something she just forgets about as an adult, actually. Also wrt mess she probably doesn't see it as adults do, I know I didn't notice it as a teenager, and people let adult men get away with that (saying they don't noticehousework to be done) so why teenage girls should be penalised for it I don't know! I do think you're being unreasonable to refer to her as hateful and manipulative, sorry. She sounds like she's having a very difficult time and needs some sympathy.

I'm not a mum to a teenager yet myself but I hav worked with vulnerable and difficult teens for 7 years. One strategy I used to use at work was to put them in charge of thier own destiny as it were. When they were being problematic I waited to a time when things were ok and the mood was receptive and we list the problems and get the child to suggest possible punishments and solutions to the issue. You have to open the conversation at a time when things are good though and discuss it without agression or accusation.

"We have a few problems we need to discuss-they aren't making anyone in this family happy at the moment so lets sit down and see if we can work through them together"

Good luck.

Does your DD fully appreciate what aspergers means? You mention that "DD refuses to make any allowances for his special needs". You also say that "she constantly accuses me of favouring him and treating him differently from her and my middle dc, of not punishing him enough". It sounds to me as if your DD hasn't accepted that her brother has aspergers or perhaps doesn't fully understand what it means.

loosyloo I assume you're just being provocative with your good wallop remark.

It would be utterly wrong for the OP to give in to violence, and would only provoke her DD to further and justified anger, until the two of them are having stand up fights.

Lovely.

My DH is a teacher, who has been identified at his school as someone with good classroom management. His advice -

As often as you can, give praise for good behaviour, but when possible, ignore the bad (sometimes that's not appropriate, but kids often misbehave in order to get a reaction from you, in which case any reaction from you is a success in their eyes, if you ignore them, they may stop)

Always stay calm and make sure they think that you are under control

If you make a threat (eg shout at me again and you'll go to your room), then always follow through