to think that birth is about having a baby rather than some transcendental spiritual experience?

[upsylazy]

The main reason I'm posting this is that a good friend of mine had her first DC 4 months ago. She went to NCT classes and I know that there are some very good NCT classes which don't overdo the natural birth thing but this one definitely DID. She listened to the class teacher and endless other women who came in to describe their labours as the most amazing experience of their life and talked a lot about the spiritual side of birth etc.The walls were all adorned of women in birthing pools at home, holding their baby with a spaced out spiritual look.

My friend was completely hooked and signed up for hypnobirthing and planned a home birth in water.

The reality, for all sorts of reasons completely beyond her control was that she ended up being blue lighted to hospital, needed a crash section under GA. The baby had to go to SCBU due to breathing problems and a suspected infection and friend had a massive PPH which required 2 blood transfusions.

Obviously, she was left traumatised by the whole experience. However, 4 months later, she still can't seem to move on at all from the experience and seems to see herself as a terrible failure which is impacting on her ability to bond with her DD as she sometimes feels that she has let her down.

Her DH is a diamond and is trying to be supportive but is starting to get frustrated as he really doesn't "get" why she is so devastated as, for him as a bystander, being told that he might lose one or both of them, in his mind (understandably) he thinks surely the fact that they;re both fine is what matters.

This isn't the first case I've seen like this and I think that these women are often given unrealistic information about birth. Of course, for some women, labour and birth are almost spiritual experiences but I think they;re quite a small minority. I'm not talking about the actual moment when you meet your baby which is fairly universally wonderful but labour itself also being wonderful.

I spoke to my nan when I was expecting DS1 about the classes I was going to and she simply couldn't believe what I was saying as, when she gave birth, the only hope women had was that they'd both come out alive - her mum died giving birth and so did one of her cousins.

I know I'm rambling here but I suppose I'm saying that maybe we should go back to seeing birth as a means to an end and having a positive birth experience as a bonus rather than an entitlement. Of course it's better to have a good birth than an awful one and I'm not saying that women shouldn't try to prepare or plan if it makes them feel empowered.

My first birth was horrendous beyond my worst nightmares but it didn't leave any great mark on me as my only hope going into it was to come out with a baby. had I psyched myself up to think that I was going to get a beautiful mystical experience, I may have found it much harder to have got over my feelings of disappointment.

I'm not sure people have a sense of entitlement when it comes to birth - they just want to make the best of it given all the horror stories that plenty of mums are willing to share. What's wrong with that? I certainly was one of those mums (although second time around didn't really think about it too much).

Her birth sounds horrendous and I'm sure she'd have been traumatised regardless.

I have heard anecdotely that very young mums tend to have the better birth experiences because they haven't read anything or researched all possibilities so just went with it.

sort of, but also not

my first labour was awful, i had a bad experience (was treated like a whinging incompetant pain in the ass) and it took a while to get over my feelings of failure, which had everything to do with how i was treated

I think women should be free to prepare for birth in a way which they want. There are no guarantees, but there are certainly things a woman can do (or avoid) to maximise her chances of a straightforward birth. For many women, the idea of giving birth in hospital with drugs is what they want, and for others it is the last thing they want. It's about respecting women preferences. And remember there is not always an inevitable outcome for a birth. Sometimes things go dramatically wrong but the majority of pregnancies and labours are medically straightforward. Two women can go into labour after normal pregnancies and they could each have very different births - its not preordained. Much depends on the interventions (if any) the woman chooses.

It sounds like your friend set herself up with an expectation and is now disappointed but it's worth remembering that many women find NCT classes very helpful. Personally I would rather have photos of women on the Walls looking ecstatic after a water birth than a photo of a woman lying on a bed with an epidural. My Personal preference.

I think I was lucky, I was so fed up with being pregnant I just wanted my babies out of me and didn't give a damn how that happened, Weirdly, that made giving birth a very positive and happy experience. I was just so happy that the end was in sight.

YANBU but I think a lot of women realise that it's not going to be all about scented candles and whale music shite...or am I naive in thinking that most women realise what they've let themselves in for re. the actual birth & what's involved??!

I think the NCT has a lot to answer for- I have a couple of friends & acquaintances who were all set up for the home water birth, minimal drugs/intervention and ended up with endless interventions in hospital.

All was "fine" in the end as mother & baby were all in one piece, just about, but they were left bitterly disappointed and this clouded the first couple of months, and still does as they comtemplate their 2nd pregnancies.

I think the NCT could be more realistic about what can happen, and that really it's in the hands of the clinical staff making decisions- you cannot control things when it comes to childbirth, even if you decide to have a homebirth etc.

What your friend is going through is quite common and is a form of mourning over a loss of an imagined experience. I use imagined as a descriptive word not to belittle the experience.

Her HV should have had training on this. There are self help books available.
I have heared of women who take years to get over their birth experiences. It is a specialised form of counselling that she may be able to get refered on to it she feels that she needs to.

It isn't something that most people could understand and isn't talked about enough.

Just to add i am in my fourties, this isn't something new and was around well before NCT classes for 'the masses'. Previously there would have been more still births and the grieving process would have been centred, obviously on this, it would have taken subsequent pregnancies for this to appear.

With the rise in live births after complicated labours, more research has been done and there is a greater recognition of a similar state to post traumatic stress disorder.

I'm inclined to agree OP. I had a very medicalised birth with DD, epidural, feet in stirrups etc.

But it was fab! I knew from the start after hearing friend's smug stories about their drug free childbirth that it wasn't for me. Yes they are uber proud that they did it 'naturally', but every one of them has admitted that they couldn't care less when the baby was actually being born because they were so cross eyed with pain.

I had very little pain and was busy watching picturing my next meal (v.hungry by that point ) when I was pushing DD into the world.

I realise that every woman should be proud of how they give birth, whether they have an easy time like me, a drug free birth, a CS, or any way really. Like you say, it's a means to an end, and we are lucky we live in times where medical intervention prevents so many deaths in childbirth.

To be honest your friend's birth sounds incredibly traumatic and was a life-threatening experience so NCT or no NCT, she might be feeling exactly as she is now. Her dh and others supporting (e.g. you) need to learn a bit about PTSD and birth trauma. Her dh may need some support to realise that the experience was very different for her and this is not necessarily because of some pie in the sky notions about spiritual birth. It is not at all uncommon for women to feel like a failure in these situations irregardless of how they approached birth theoretically. She is at high risk for PND and/or PTSD and this may be what's going on, she won't just "snap out of it" because someone else feels that rationally it's all fine as she is still alive. Also, do remember that the factors that make a birth insurmountably traumatic for one woman as opposed to another will relate to all sorts of things e.g. their factor, past history, past traumas and how much they truly believed they or their baby was going to die, among others. You can't and shouldn't compare your birth to your friends, or think that it's because you "did" antenatal preparation differently to her. That is unhelpful.

their personality, not their factor

I also think that you are glossing over her feelings around the baby being in SCBU, she obviously needs someone to talk this through with. The hospital or her GP should be able to sign post her.

Also re: "I'm not talking about the actual moment when you meet your baby which is fairly universally wonderful but labour itself also being wonderful", this is not at all the case. For a great many women, meeting their baby is not at all wonderful, with perhaps one in five feeling revulsion, shame, horror or nothing at all. Women who have come close to losing a baby (or believe they have in a traumatic labour experience) will also quite commonly distance themselves emotionally from their baby and may be preoccupied with the birth. You don't know that meeting her baby was a wonderful experience for your friend. My abiding first memory of my son was of him being limp and blue and held up for one second before he was whisked away. When I got him back he was screaming uncontrollably and all I felt was utter, utter horror that I had "failed" him and cause him pain because I was absolutely convinved he was in immense pain from the forceps delivery. It wasn't wonderful in the slightest, but I was a lucky one, the feelings of love and protection were there very quickly and we bonded well. Do you really know what's happening at that level with your friend? PS 4 months is nothing...

i thought i was going to breathe the baby out whilst listening to whale music

i was wrong

so wrong :)

Agree Working and did she get to 'meet' her baby, or was he rushed straight to SCBU.

YANBU I came across a number of women at a mums and babies group who felt pity (!) for me because I had a c-section!! They had pushed their's out without pain relief and as such seemed to adopt this sort of rather strange superiority. The final straw was when one said she would rather let her baby starve then give it formula...WTF!! I told pompous witch to build a bridge and get over herself and then left. All this hocus pocus rubbish just grips my s*. I read an article written by a woman who went to pieces because her face was the not the first her baby saw when it was born...it was her Obs. Idiot!

That sounds a v traumatic experience for your friend and I can't see how any amount of classes would prepare anyone for it, plus then being thrown into being a new mum. No wonder she's finding it tough. It sounds similar to post traumatic stress tbh. Sympathetic counselling could be v helpful - could you help her find a counsellor with training in this perhaps?

The method of birth does have a huge impact on both the mother and child, I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with aspiring for a gentle, natural birth where possible. I certainly wouldn't agree that all that matters is both parties being alive at the end (although clearly this is most important).
Sometimes medical necessity means that things don't go as planned, and what women need then is support, and to feel that they still have an influence over what is happening to them. I think the disappointment often comes more from a sense that something was taken away from them when they were unable to make their decisions.
I have a very traumatic birth with a whole menu of intervention (planned a home birth), but knowing that I was making my own informed decisions, based on the situation that presented, made it a lot easier to accept.

I couldn't agree more about the idealness of birth and real life birth being often far apart, but in this case, I don't really think it's the fault of NCT classes. On the limited information, it sounds like post traumatic stress syndrome which shares similarities with depression, except that the feelings of "depression" are based around usually one trauma. It will not help if those around her start telling her to get "help" and try and push her into taking drugs or therapy. It will not help if those around her start to reject her and get fed up with your friend, because they feel she should now be pulling herself together. Sure there can be short term solutions such as anti-depressants for post traumatic stress, but it doesn't ever take away the trauma and it can be very difficult to avoid memories of the trauma - her baby in front of her can be enough to bring back the trauma. You just have to be patient, your friend will need to eventually replace the negative feelings when thinking of the trauma with positive feelings, it's really the best way forward. Post traumatic stress is truly awful - I know from personal experience and I absolutely hate people telling me to pull myself together and telling me to seek therapy and then a few months down the line those who don't understand or cannot put themselves in your position start rejecting you, it's a terrible terrible thing to live through. So don't look back and don't remind your friend of the trauma, just be as supportive as you can in creating something positive.

YANBU
It's a potentially dangerous undertaking
Is it because childbirth is later after women have chosen to do university, careers, birth control etc, so think we should control birth too? Then it's disappointing ifwe can't be 'perfect'

YANBU

birth is about getting baby from inside to outside - ideally with minimal stress an injury for all involved.

Oh and have you pointed her towards the Birth Trauma Association, because they are brilliant.

YANBU. Expectation-setting is everything. If the expectations you are given are unrealistically optimistic and there is no mention of the things that can and frequently do go wrong you risk disappointment - and that's true in any situation if you think about it. Giving birth is such a personal thing, it's tempting to blame yourself. There are some that don't want to know the down-sides... fair enough, I suppose... but forewarned is forearmed.

I spent an on/off month in the ante-natal ward being monitored and, as a result, listened to many first-hand accounts from new mums on the things that had gone wrong for them. When my own baby finally arrived in one piece - and there were problems along the way - I felt damn lucky it hadn't been worse.

Expectation-setting is everything.

What I don't really understand is why a "safe" birth is seen to be such a separate thing from a "fulfilling" birth?
Intervention free births are very safe in the right situation.
Even if you are in hospital on a synto drip you can still have your low lights, whale music, massage, or whatever else might float your boat.

Just because not everyone can have something doesn't mean no one can.

My births were awesome, truly amazing experiences for me, to the point where I sometimes consider another child in order to have those moments again.

I set my expectations very high but was also grateful to have access to modern medicine.