to think that birth is about having a baby rather than some transcendental spiritual experience?

[upsylazy]

The main reason I'm posting this is that a good friend of mine had her first DC 4 months ago. She went to NCT classes and I know that there are some very good NCT classes which don't overdo the natural birth thing but this one definitely DID. She listened to the class teacher and endless other women who came in to describe their labours as the most amazing experience of their life and talked a lot about the spiritual side of birth etc.The walls were all adorned of women in birthing pools at home, holding their baby with a spaced out spiritual look.

My friend was completely hooked and signed up for hypnobirthing and planned a home birth in water.

The reality, for all sorts of reasons completely beyond her control was that she ended up being blue lighted to hospital, needed a crash section under GA. The baby had to go to SCBU due to breathing problems and a suspected infection and friend had a massive PPH which required 2 blood transfusions.

Obviously, she was left traumatised by the whole experience. However, 4 months later, she still can't seem to move on at all from the experience and seems to see herself as a terrible failure which is impacting on her ability to bond with her DD as she sometimes feels that she has let her down.

Her DH is a diamond and is trying to be supportive but is starting to get frustrated as he really doesn't "get" why she is so devastated as, for him as a bystander, being told that he might lose one or both of them, in his mind (understandably) he thinks surely the fact that they;re both fine is what matters.

This isn't the first case I've seen like this and I think that these women are often given unrealistic information about birth. Of course, for some women, labour and birth are almost spiritual experiences but I think they;re quite a small minority. I'm not talking about the actual moment when you meet your baby which is fairly universally wonderful but labour itself also being wonderful.

I spoke to my nan when I was expecting DS1 about the classes I was going to and she simply couldn't believe what I was saying as, when she gave birth, the only hope women had was that they'd both come out alive - her mum died giving birth and so did one of her cousins.

I know I'm rambling here but I suppose I'm saying that maybe we should go back to seeing birth as a means to an end and having a positive birth experience as a bonus rather than an entitlement. Of course it's better to have a good birth than an awful one and I'm not saying that women shouldn't try to prepare or plan if it makes them feel empowered.

My first birth was horrendous beyond my worst nightmares but it didn't leave any great mark on me as my only hope going into it was to come out with a baby. had I psyched myself up to think that I was going to get a beautiful mystical experience, I may have found it much harder to have got over my feelings of disappointment.

I also think that people underestimate the relevance of past experiences in terms of determining people's coping mechanisms. I had a very textbook alcoholic/chaotic/hope for nothing because it will be ruined anyway type of upbringing, and I think it made me react disproportionately negatively to the birth I had... because in that second where my ds was whisked off, I really had a "oh well, what do you expect?" sort of feeling about it and for a few moments, I was really just sure that was it and this was just another great big disaster about to occur in my life.

Reason really never came into it, it was a deep emotional reaction that was totally unexpected. Logically, as an intelligent person with quite a lot of knowledge about a variety of mental health conditions, I understand totally that if the worst happened and you did lose a child that would be infinitely worse than anything you fear or anything in your past. I also fully appreciate as a rational person that alive is what you are rooting for (and awhistlingwoman, I want to say here as I use your words that I am truly sorry for the loss of your twin that didn't make it ). However, the way things panned out for me did make me react a particular way and that was very much about who I was and where I came from. I didn't realise this at the time, it is actually only now in my second pregnancy that I have faced up to where this anxiety came from. When you give birth you are very vulnerable, it is a huge experience physically and emotionally and you are taken to your limits in ways that can be shocking and unexpected. This is true for everyone, regardless of birth experience, so it is not particularly surprising that if an experience is particularly out of the norm and a medical emergency, that is likely to provoke a psychologically traumatised response.

We don't really know what makes other people react to experiences the way they do, it's the multifaceted nature of the interior life and all that. I think it's unfortunate when people generalise from broad strokes about one person's experience that a certain type of preparation (or not) will make one person more or less able to cope with a particular birthing experience, as it runs the risk of making it be about how one type of person is "better" at dealing with trauma than another etc. This can be very damaging.

I have mixed feelings about this. Women are all very different, and what could be empowering for one person could be pressure for another.

I think women have to take responsibility for their own attitudes towards the birth they want and the birth they get, if they have false expectations then they really can't blame anyone else for that. There is a lot of information out there about positive and negative birth experiences, and I think the best thing any woman can do is go into it with as open a mind as possible.

One of my labours was induced, one of my births took place in an ambulance. G&A for both. It could have been traumatic for other people, dependant on the mental attitude they had. They were both vey positive experiences for me, and I understand completely what people say about the 'spiritual' side of it, although its hard to put into words.

I experienced it without scented candles and a birth pool, and I don't see why women shouldn't be prepared to feel like that just because some women won't get it. My classes talked about pethidine, epidurals, forceps and all the rest of it, it turned out to be irrelevant for me thankfully. Just because the spiritual side of birth turns out to be irrelevant to some others, does not mean that it shouldn't be discussed. It can be quite overwhelming for women to feel like that, especially if like me, they are not remotely 'woo', and it can feel like no one understands if it does happen. I would like to have known that other women felt the way I did. Even though it wasn't traumatic for me, it was still a massive experience and just as valid and worthy of support.

working9while5 Thank you for your kind words about my little girl. I think you make a very good point. I know that my own experience was compounded by the feeling that you have described so well, that internal voice saying, "what did you expect?" was ringing in my ears too.

I hope that my response did not seem belittling. I think what I was trying to say, albeit not very coherently, is that there is a hierarchy of needs in childbirth. In my view, alive is right at the pinnacle. But that's not to say that there are no other needs, not in the slightest. There are many and they all deserve to be addressed.

I know that giving such primacy to alive-ness can be used a stick to beat yourself with along the lines of, "Oh, it could have been worse but at least we're both alive so I'd better just suck it up and then feel guilty that I can't be more grateful." That is a horrible internal dialogue to have with yourself and one that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I suppose I was simply trying to say that I feel it would be kinder for there to be slightly more acknowledgement of the fact that childbirth, like life in general, does sometimes take unexpected turns!

I had the rather bizarre experience of attending an NHS antenatal class in my second pregnancy and it does all seem very 'lovely' and slightly surreal from the perspective lent to me by my first pregnancy.

Disclaimer - I've never been to NCT classes so perhaps I should back away from this thread now!

This wasn't my experience of NCT classes. My teacher was very grounded and realistic and she spent a lot of time stressing the fact that while it's important to be prepared and know your options, it's just as important to realise that what actually happens during the birth is a lottery and you cannot control this. There was no agenda to push natural birth; full impartial info was given on all interventions and types of birth.

I'm now pg with dc2 and every time I go to see the NHS midwife for the usual routine tests I get home births rammed down my throat. Apparently I'm an ideal candidate. But no matter how many times I tell her I don't want a home birth, I want to be in hospital with all the life saving equipment in full view, she keeps trying to persuade me. And it's not a personal crusade - every HCP I've seen in relation to this pregnancy has pushed home births. It must be my local NHS policy or something, and I'm finding it pretty irritating.

The doula who ran our NCT class was very anti any kind of intervention and focussed completely on the spiritual side. I think it's fine to want the lavender oil, dim lights, music, water birth etc, as long as you're well prepared before hand that things may go outside your control and you may not get the experience you've set your heart on.

None of the mothers in my NCT group had an intervention free birth. We had forceps, C-sections and forceps.

I think you need to do whatever suits you so that you can approach the birth in a relaxed frame of mind.

I hope things work out for your friend and that she'll be able to fell that she hasn't failed in any way.

feel not fell

Awhistlingwoman, I didn't mean to imply your response was belittling at all, hope I didn't.. I think it is really what slavetofilofax says, that for all of us it's really about so many things at once whether it is straightforward at best or tragic at worst or somewhere in between, it's really such a huge human experience for everyone. I used to feel really guilty for feeling so crap when everything was okay and in that early postnatal period would obsessively read stories where the outcome had been death for mother and/or child to "shame" myself into not being so "ridiculous" about it. I felt I was being disrespectful to women who had had the worst experiences by feeling as I did about something where the outcome was actually fine, so I would sit by the laptop crying about children who died in labour or in birth and crying because I was unable to feel anything other than this irrational guilt about my son's entry into the world. I literally couldn't look at his Bounty pictures because of the bruising I thought was so terrible, though two years down the line I realise that he looks like a beautiful healthy baby with barely a mark on him! The mind is a terrible thing sometimes!

I think,op, that you are doing what people always do when something bad happens - you are looking for someone to 'blame' because as humans we try to learn from experiences so they won't happen to us. Sadly this is not in fact deeply rational and often makes the people who experienced the original event feel more crap if they find out what other people are thinking - I'm sure you are too nice to tell your friend your thoughts btw but I bet she's beating herself up about it already.

I think that your friend had an awful experience and that even if she hadnt planned a birth as she did she would still feel pretty much the same - not many birth plans include ambulances and nearly losing the baby.

I dont think the actual birth has much to do with how you feel about it if that makes sense - I have had 4 and the middle two were induced 5 weeks early becasue of preeclampsia they were more stressful medicalized and my son was born suddenly as they were getting me ready for a c section so not exactly peacful relaxing experience and i didnt actually get and pain relief with all that was going on i should have been stressed but i wasnt.
My fourth daughter came naturally at 39 weeks, had gas and air lovely calm room lovely midwife and yet i had panic attacks and nightmares for a logn time after the birth and am now dreading the birth of dc5.
who knows how these things work but i hope your friend gets the support she needs soon.

YANBU, but then I'm probably not that qualified to answer for a number of reasons - but mainly because I have had 2 very straightforward births, including twins.

Also I didn't attend any NCT classes although I am sure I would have found it all hippy-dippy shit as I am very pragmatic and practical.

Couldn't agree with the OP more. The sense of failure I see around is so frustrating and upsetting. There isn't failure, there is having a baby. Also think the relentless focus on the birth, not the realities of the first few months makes parents desperately unprepared (emotionally) and I'd be astounded if that didn't compound PND.

I think you just have to listen kindly to the ongoing trauma your friend feels.

She nearly died, her baby had to go to SCBU? I was lucky, my birth went rather well & I managed to hypnobirth calmly despite being induced. All was perfect. My son nearly died at 4 days old. I fell to pieces. It is over 2&half years since, I'm still not 'over' it - never will be I expect.

Your friend's husband does not sound very supportive to me tbh - 4 months is a teeny period of time to get one's head round how close we are to death. Your friend has had a really big trauma.

My mum told me I wouldn't have been so upset about nearly losing my son if I hadn't 'expected' a healthy baby. Wtf??!

It took me a long time, many many months, to stop being angry that my son was given a dummy in ICU and face up to my real anger that life is so random I was a hairsbreadth from losing my son and there was fuck all I could do about it.

I can see what you're saying about birth, but I think what happened to your friend sounds so awful it would have rocked her whatever. Glad to hear all ok now.

Working9while5 - I also used to read stories about babies who didn't pull through. So many people used to tell me I was 'lucky' but I didn't feel lucky. I have 3 friends who never told me how to feel but let me express how sad/scared/angry I was. I don't know what I would have done without them.

Sometimes people can't see the outcome til they've processed the experience. Nowadays I feel lucky, I can't believe how lucky. But it was well over 18 months before that feeling surfaced at all.

Problem is her friends on her NCT course presumably all aimed for that experience and so she compares herself with them and not with the pragmatic ones who just concentrate on healthy baby.

I had a birth plan etc which was a load of rubbish, I needed interventions but ended up with lovely baby.

Unless the mother is a midwife or obstetrician herself how can she be the expert on delivery. There's nothing you can do if it gets stuck and you end up in an ambulance - nor is there anything the clueless NCT tutor can help with in that situation

i was v glad of my nct classes with my first birth

our instructor let us set the agenda, and gave us lots of information about various interventions/things that can happen

she had the partners roleplay a cs - so we would know who was there, and what they did - v useful, as i ended up having an emcs

at no point did she make us feel like we were failing if we needed pain relief - she talked us through the different types, their pros and cons, their effect on us and on the baby, and always reinforced that it was our decision to make

i felt great about labouring, and very 'what will be will be', until it actually started, and the first midwife i saw smirked and said i was doing it all wrong, that i didn't need any pain relief, that it would be a long labour, and that i wouldn't last, then disappearing for hours

What a nasty post.

Your friend has suffered a horrendous traumatic experience and all you can find to do in your heart is criticise her and say how she's wrong, and use her experience as a jumping off point for your opinion about things you disagree with.

If her husband is struggling to understand what she's going through why not explain to him that birth trauma can have a severe effect, instead of going on about what a diamond he is.

She's criticising her for feeling entitled to have had a good birth experience, and for not getting over her trauma quickly enough. Apparently if she'd had a more straightforward view of it she wouldn't be feeling these effects.

The OP is completely ignoring the damage that trauma does, and that there's generally no quick way of getting over it, no matter what someone's initial expecations were.

Yabu. Nothing wring with having expectations as long as they are based on good information.

Oh, and I had every drug going and forceps in the end, not what I wanted but there we go.

I think your expectation that your friend should adjust her expectations and in that way "get over" her horrendous birth is U. It sounds like she went through hell. Her trauma is about that hell, and probably not much more than that.

In a very real sense, just being pregnant and giving birth, even without complications, is akin to standing in the breach between life and death... things can go wrong at any time, just as they did for our grandmothers, and everyone knows that subconsciously no matter what they pretend. To go through that, and then ALSO have a crash section and a PPH and a baby in SCBU, is traumatic in the extreme. Your poor friend.

Both you and her DH need to educate yourselves about birth trauma... she needs support not judgement about how her trauma is her own problem because she was too lentil-weaving about birth in the first place.

Beyond that, yes of course the truth of birth lies somewhere between the woo and the clinical. The popular perceptions of the birth experience will change according to the intellectual fashions of the day.

YANBU

Antenatal classes should prepare women for the full range of birth experiences, including births which are more difficult.

And should raise the issue of birth trauma in the sense of a) acknowledging that it occurs and b) flag up how women can get help to manage their feelings after a difficult birth.

Any antenatal class which doesn't do this - NHS or NCT, isn't meeting a very basic need.

Oh, and my NHS class certainly didn't cover all the bases. It was very inadequate.

However, my understanding is that women who attend NCT classes are usually told how to optimise their chance of having a good birth and this is VERY important to know.

OP - I feel sorry for your friend. She did all the right things to optimise her chances of having a normal birth, but still ended up with a crash c/s and a poorly baby.

"birth is about getting baby from inside to outside - ideally with minimal stress an injury for all involved"

Absolutely - but interestingly all the latest research shows that the NCT has been getting it rightby pointing out all these years that staying the fuck away from a CLU and opting for a MLU or homebirth SIGNIFICANTLY increases a mum's chance of coming through the birth without needing to be operated on, and with a healthy baby.

Sadly, some mums will make this choice and - like the OP's friend, will still have a difficult time.

But that's not a rationale for not passing this information on to pregnant women in the first place.