to think that birth is about having a baby rather than some transcendental spiritual experience?

[upsylazy]

The main reason I'm posting this is that a good friend of mine had her first DC 4 months ago. She went to NCT classes and I know that there are some very good NCT classes which don't overdo the natural birth thing but this one definitely DID. She listened to the class teacher and endless other women who came in to describe their labours as the most amazing experience of their life and talked a lot about the spiritual side of birth etc.The walls were all adorned of women in birthing pools at home, holding their baby with a spaced out spiritual look.

My friend was completely hooked and signed up for hypnobirthing and planned a home birth in water.

The reality, for all sorts of reasons completely beyond her control was that she ended up being blue lighted to hospital, needed a crash section under GA. The baby had to go to SCBU due to breathing problems and a suspected infection and friend had a massive PPH which required 2 blood transfusions.

Obviously, she was left traumatised by the whole experience. However, 4 months later, she still can't seem to move on at all from the experience and seems to see herself as a terrible failure which is impacting on her ability to bond with her DD as she sometimes feels that she has let her down.

Her DH is a diamond and is trying to be supportive but is starting to get frustrated as he really doesn't "get" why she is so devastated as, for him as a bystander, being told that he might lose one or both of them, in his mind (understandably) he thinks surely the fact that they;re both fine is what matters.

This isn't the first case I've seen like this and I think that these women are often given unrealistic information about birth. Of course, for some women, labour and birth are almost spiritual experiences but I think they;re quite a small minority. I'm not talking about the actual moment when you meet your baby which is fairly universally wonderful but labour itself also being wonderful.

I spoke to my nan when I was expecting DS1 about the classes I was going to and she simply couldn't believe what I was saying as, when she gave birth, the only hope women had was that they'd both come out alive - her mum died giving birth and so did one of her cousins.

I know I'm rambling here but I suppose I'm saying that maybe we should go back to seeing birth as a means to an end and having a positive birth experience as a bonus rather than an entitlement. Of course it's better to have a good birth than an awful one and I'm not saying that women shouldn't try to prepare or plan if it makes them feel empowered.

My first birth was horrendous beyond my worst nightmares but it didn't leave any great mark on me as my only hope going into it was to come out with a baby. had I psyched myself up to think that I was going to get a beautiful mystical experience, I may have found it much harder to have got over my feelings of disappointment.

"And having a general discussion about whether or not it would be sensible if women (as in women in general) should be given a more realistic expectation of birth."

Yes - they should be told that as first time mums, they have nearly a one in three chance of ending up with an emergency c/s, and if they avoid an operative birth, are overwhelmingly likely (in many hospitals) to end up with a ventouse or forceps delivery anyway.

And then they need to know how they can reduce the chance of this happening to them by opting for
a homebirth
a birth in a MLU
taking a doula in with them if they go to a CLU
having an independent midwife
having a planned c/s

and perhaps thinking hard about whether they're prepared to be induced if they're offered one for post-dates pregnancy.

The figures speak for themselves really.

There aren't actually that many 'factors beyond control' as you seem to think, op.

V low risk mothers overwhelmingly have v small chances of things going v wrong, unless there is unnecessary medical intervention.

I was low risk.
factors beyond my control:
DS's heart rate dipping erratically.
Cord round his neck twice.
My placenta already breaking down, therefore him already fighting hard to survive at 9 days overdue.
Meconium in his mouth and him inhaling into his lungs as he desperately tried to breathe.

The words 'hypoxic ischaemic encephalopathy' still haunt us.

Shall I go on?

EMCS, month in NICU, flashbacks, nightmares, counselling and antidepressants.
20 months on, and I am pregnant again. Already made my choices for this birth, and I have a consultant who will support me every step of the way. Thank goodness.

And if anyone says Cascade of Intervention to me for this pregnancy I shall restrain myself from shouting very loudly at them.

the meconium into his lungs.

YANBU
I think that preparation and birth plans mean very little. I had two totally opposite birthing experiences and really the main difference between the two was that with birth 2 my body had done it before, it was easier and she came out quicker. The only 'plan' I had was to try and avoid epidural if I could bear it! I think it's natural to want to have lots of control over it but agree that classes should underline to women that their bodies and babies will have the biggest say on the day!

YANBU. I actually went into the whole process fully expecting everything to go wrong (for reasons connected both to my upbringing and to my first, disastrous, pregnancy where I lost the baby at 18 weeks and nearly died myself).

Some of my NCT group had very much rosier expectations than I did, which I think the NCT rather encouraged (this was a group of late 30-something first-time mothers, I was the youngest at 35, which made it particularly unrealistic to gloss over the risks of complications). I was very, very lucky and had a healthy baby through a textbook labour and delivery, didn't even need stitches. I was the only one in a group of 8: everyone else had either an assisted delivery or a section (though nothing as traumatic as the OP's friend's experience), and two or three of them did feel they'd failed. That's very sad and the tone of the classes is partly responsible, I think.

Cansu - but equally it needs to be acknowledged that
WHERE you have your baby, and
WHO will be with you
can also make a very big difference to what sort of birth you end up with.

Snetter - the cascade of intervention is a very real threat to normal birth to many, many mothers. You're unreasonable to get cross with people mentioning it just because you feel the interventions you had were life saving for your ds.

I think that any type of classes should focus on all the different outcomes. Of course every woman would probably want a natural, non-traumatic birth. But that is not how it works out in a lot of cases. So I do see the OP's point if classes are focusing on 'natural' births only- then yes it probably does increase the chances that a woman who has a traumatic experience or even interventions themselves will feel as if she has "failed". Yes, you are probably right in that the more expectations of how things WILL go, the higher the disappointment and pain when it doesn't go the way you would have liked.

When I had my first child at 17 I was a scared kid basically . I had no idea of anything - my antenatal midwife's answer to all my questions was "You will have a nice normal delivery but not at home in the hospital (cause of my age I think), don't worry" - I had no classes .I was induced at 38 weeks for reasons to this day I still have no idea (2012 will be the year I get my notes!) and after 3/4 days of trying that prostin stuff still no dilation or ripening. No-one would tell me what was going to happen - different staff said different things. On the Friday I had a midwife saying they would just keep me in until I went into labour myself hopefully, another saying try induction again, and a consultant saying a c-section. On the Saturday morning whilst in the shower, I was whipped down for a c-section. My ex-partner didn't turn up as his phone was off (hence "ex"!). So yes, 17 and alone wasn't such a good time. But I am happy that both of us were fine afterwards.

My second child I was much more prepared for what would come and basically just went in with a determined attitude that i would get this baby out safely whatever happens and I would speak up for what I needed with the staff if necessary. Ended up another c-section in the end x

OP, your friend may benefit a lot from some counselling? 4 months is really no time at all x

Tadlowdog - I think half the problem is that the MAJORITY of 1st time mums will give birth in a CLU. Many will opt for an epidural. And that includes the majority of over 30's attending NCT classes. Statistically, women in these groups receiving this type of care WILL have very high levels of intervention.

Doesn't mean high levels of intervention for these groups is INEVITABLE.

Thanks - I didn't have a 'normal' birth then, shagmund? I'll just sod off to where the 'freaks who needed intervention' exist then!

If they mention it to me, and they know my history, then I would not be unreasonable to get angry.

I am very happy for all those whose birth is not traumatic, and would not wish it on anyone. I would support others in their choices, is it too much to ask that they support mine???

I had DS in a MLU. Three others in my NCT group also started off in MLUs, and one went for a home birth, but all had to transfer when things went wrong. I think being relatively old is a risk factor in itself.

Alias - stories like yours make me glad that the NCT exists.

Thank god someone is arguing for women's right to make informed choices about their care.

I don't think it's silly to have a birth plan, or to have very strong ideas about what you want in your birth, I really dislike that attitude. It is OK to want a gentle, calm birth. Of course, that isn't always what happens, but it's OK to want it, and to feel sad if it doesn't happen for whatever reason. Just as it's fine to want to BF and feel sad if it doesn't work out.

I also hate the attitude that you should just get over a traumatic birth because, well, the baby's OK. If you had any other experience that was so damaging, attacking and terrifying, you would be allowed the space and time to get over it. With post birth trauma, you are belittled for being some whale-music wanting ridiculous hippy, and accused of disappointment. It is so much more complicated than that!

(3 births, one CLU induction with iatrogenic problems for both DD and I, and a side order of PTSD for me, 2 intervention free HB. All "overdue" - 42+3, 41+5, 42+3.)

Who is arguing against that?

I totally understand why women want to organise and plan their births but i honestly think it makes little difference esp with first babies. I think knowing all the options and understanding the different interventions is great but I think having very fixed expectations can lead to women feeling cheated and somehow guilty about what happened.

Snetter - 'defensive? Moi?'

Obviously if they know your obstetric history they'd be better not to comment. Actually, commenting univited on a friends birth choices is a bad idea whatever you know about their obstetric history.

I agree, cansu.

Cansu - planning to give birth in a MLU or at home DOES impact on the likelihood of a normal birth. There is good proof of this.

Planning is about optimising your chances of a good birth.
Obviously expectations have to be realistic.

"fixed expectations" - I didn't really have any with DC1. Knew I wanted a HB but "wasn't allowed" as I have asthma. I believed the lying cunt that told me that, because I was incredibly naive and believed that HCP would provide the best, evidence based option. I now know that is not the case.

I still had asthma with my HBs, in fact, with the second one, I spent a week in hospital at 41 weeks + with 'flu induced asthma attacks! Still had a HB. No reason on earth not to.

Did you read my first post? Do you wonder why I am defensive? I went to NCT and NHS classes, listened and made informed choices about what I wanted for my birth. I would have loved to have avoided the interventions that we had, but the informed choices I made saved DS's life. So thanks for that. How utterly nasty some people can be.
Hiding this thread now.

shagmundfreud, yes, it has an impact, but it doesn't guarantee it (witness those people in my NCT group who did plan to have their babies at home or in an MLU and for whom it didn't work out that way).

I think that you should go to classes and be fully prepared and have preferences, but you need to be open minded and flexible. Don't build it all up write long birth plans etc because you could be very disappointed if it doesn't work out. You can't plan it all in exact detail like a wedding-it may not turn out that you get just what you want.

Haven't read the full thread but wanted to add some defence of NCT... I might have been lucky but the classes we went to emphasised our right to choose where and how we give birth. We were fully informed about all the pain management options and really helpfully what happens in a c-section. Our teacher was completely neutral and unbiased and focussed on the fact that what matters is that Mum and Baby come out of the birth ok. As it was several in our class ended up giving birth naturally without pain relief, mostly due to having quick births! But there was never any sense that that was the only way to do it!