Is she really 'an artist', or is she just crap?

[Nandocushion]

I met my friend a few years ago and she told me, early on, that she was an artist. She didn't talk much more about it, and she was always short of money (if not in fact 'starving'), so I didn't really question it.

More recently, she's told me the rather sad history of her art career, and it was as follows: went to art school, had approximately 15 shows, never sold anything. Not. A. Thing.

She is now 30 years out of art school and has never sold a piece of art. She feels that critics have been biased.

I haven't seen her art. I have no idea what it is like, but I do assume that over the course of THIRTY YEARS, if she was good, someone would have noticed. And I also think, that if you have never ever ever made any sort of money, not even pennies, off being an artist, then maybe it's time you stopped calling yourself "an artist". Am I BU?

tigermoll, you are an artist, but work in a call centre to pay the bills. That is secondary to your art. You are right, you put heart and soul into it. That is what art is about - not money, not success, not worldly goods, just soul.

'For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul'

There is nothing better than art, because it is about teh soul, it is spiritual, it is communing with the divine. Everything else is mundane.

Thanks, claig.

It just seems a bit pathetic, - it's one thing to have no money and a headfull of pretentious dreams when you're 21, no one thinks there's anything wrong with that. But when you're (ahem) a bit older, and STILL not famous, everyone thinks you're a failure. But I just love it so much, I can't quite seem to let it go. It feels like being in love with someone who is cruel to you, and cheats all the time.

To make matters worse (OH POOR ME ) my partner is in the same field as me, and is VERY SUCCESSFUL. To the point of getting recognised in the street. For the first year we were together, I almost couldn't bear it, - I was so horribly, demeaningly, childishly jealous I could hardly bear it. I started to have sympathy for Kenneth Halliwell, - I knew where he was coming from . I almost split up with my OH over it, but managed to stop myself from such petty self-sabotage. It is still really tough, - I try not to let him see (its not his fault and I don't want to punish him for his success, - I am proud of him) but sometimes I'm at some industry party on his arm and I want to burst into tears and weep into my canape.

Sorry for thread-hijacking. But it feels good to get it off my chest.

I agree you should ask to see her work. It could be very good.

You're right. The life of an artist is one of the toughest out there. It often leads to lacjk of recognition and lack of worldly success. Many parents dread it when they hear their children say they want to be artists or musicians, because they fear they will not be successful and earn lots of money. They would prefer them to go into accountancy.

But you only have one life and art is a calling. Inspiration produces works of art. there is no inspiration in accountancy.

One day when you are long gone, your works of art will still survive and be looked at by future generations.

I still have my nan's paintings and drawings hanging on my walls. She wasn't a professional artist but she poured her time and soul into creating art for pure pleasure, and it still exists now.

'An artist cannot fail; it is a success to be one.'
Charles Horton Cooley

For me, the process of painting or drawing is rewarding in itself. I get so involved I forget everything about real life and lose all sense of time. I'd paint and draw even if someone was systematically destroying all my work, and I knew it would never be seen or sold.

Just read that back and it sounds arsey. That's the trouble with describing these things.

Oh god tigermoll, that's ghastly. I gave up an artistic career for the same reasons you describe (only without the successful OH, that would have done me in completely, although maybe at least you have a bit of cash coming in to the house?! ).

I also used to dread people asking me what I did for a living, although in my defence I did actually get paid for it. For me, yes, Artist is a job title, and unless your friend is being commissioned, or is between jobs, then she isn't one.

She obviously feels a real passion for it as she's still doing it, but if she doesn't have money worries due to being supported by her DH, then it's much easier stay passionate.

Oh Tigermoll! . I know how you feel. You are obviously a much nicer person than me as I would not have been able to stay with someone succeeding in a career I wanted.

Thanks for the wine and sympathy, - I do feel rather sorry for myself at times! I know that is not an appealing look

On the plus side, it has pushed me to try harder in a new-but-related field, - if I can't have the career I wanted, then I can at least be in charge of the bits I can control. The last thing, the very last thing I want is to end up living my dreams through him, - making his career 'something we both work on' or becoming his PA/assistant/sounding board/helper. Or even (and don't hate me for this particular bit of selfishness) being his financial support while he pursues his dreams. At the mo, he is earning a fair bit more than me, but that is not guaranteed for ever, and, if I'm going to have to work in a sh1tty call centre, I'm not going to do it to support him while he's between jobs.

There is such a thing as unpaid or voluntary work, isn't there? You don't have to be paid to be genuinely doing a job.

Tigermoll what a sad story, I work in the same field as my husband and whilst pleased for his success, also feel jealous at times, as he does with me (although we also encourage each other too).

OP, I don't think it really matters to you how your friend defines herself, she obviously had enough talent and dedication to get and produce material for 15 shows which is something in itself. It is strange that she never sold anything though, I can't think why a gallery would put on a very unsellable show, or do so multiple times.

Does she still create art? Does she want to go back to that time in her life and try and sell work, on the internet or wherever. If she wanted to do those things, she could, however perhaps her appetite for putting herself out there and getting rejected has waned over the years, and in not needing to work.

It is an important part of her self-identity that she produces art, I can't see what you would gain from taking that away from her.

I can see both sides. I'm a bit horrified that to be considered an artist, you have to have sold something/make a living. Bit weird.

I'm also not into needing to define yourself. It seems very endemic to this country. What ARE you? What do you DO? As if we can sum people up in one easy word.

Tigermoll also remember that art, like everything has its fashions, so you may get your chance, and his position may also change.

I agree with you that supporting him is not necessarily a role for you, or would be a very frustrating one, you are being very sensible in carving out an alternative career in which you can be successful.

And, I know it sounds a bit trite, but not everyone is destined to sell a lot, but people can still get pleasure from your work, from small provincial shows, being in a local art shop, to giving them as gifts, to having your own art displayed at home. I display art from several family members at work, people comment on it and it has greater value than piled up in the spare room. I know it's not what you dream of, but it can still have immense value in a smaller way.

Nando the world's full of 'creatives' calling themselves artists/writers/film makers, etc. who seem to have expensive hobbies rather than careers - and there are lucrative industries dependent on these people. And ironically, it seems that most of these 'creatives' who do get paid for their work in these areas do it as part of these 'industries' - by presenting workshops to other wannabes, as administrators, etc. - rather than for their creative efforts themselves. But that's all quite harmless, isn't it?
IKWYM about it being irritating when people describe themselves as having some noble calling which doesn't seem to be recognised by anyone except themselves, and quite often it seems to be the ones who aren't actually being recognised or paid for their creative efforts who find themselves the most fascinating - particularly compared to lesser mortals who are doing 'boring' jobs.

But on the other hand, 15 exhibitions isn't bad - and it could be that she's good at producing the work but crap at marketing it. Also, she hasn't really been at it for 30 years, has she? More like 5-10 if you consider that her career must have started after training - same as any other career.

What do you think of her work? Surely that's the bast way for you to decide whether she's an artist or a piss artist?

I think the word missing in her declaration is Professional" anyone can call themselves an artist, sculptor, designer, inventor, musician or writer etc etc - if she is not earning money from it, then she is not a PROFESSIONAL ARTIST^ - so YABU

Though do totally get what P's you off about it, I know more than a few of these types, most have never worked a proper day in their lives but consider themselves to be artist etc, but amongst people I know the ones in this group, don't have any real talent - the ones that did have talent either "made it" years ago, or gave up, got a job & kept it as a hobby - I've 2 friends in their late 40s & 50s that are exactly like this & it winds me up at times too - especially the times when I'm introduced to their other - newer - friends & its automatically assumed they were successful when younger - I've even been asked if I used to work for one of them in their shop - it was the other way round

I forgot to add - I do think its odd you've never seen her work though - I find wannabe artist etc can't wait to show you what they've done, no matter how amateur it is

Ah, this irks me too! As someone who lists their hobbies as painting and writing and mixes in quite 'arty' circles I come across this quite a bit. Being a project manager pays my bills so this is what I say when people ask what I do. I will mention the writing and painting (which has bore some fruit but not enough to survive on) if relevant.

I find the best way to approach it is to enthusiastically say 'How wonderful! I wish I could pay the mortgage on bills on art alone!' and any combination of 'What is your most recent commission?', 'Where are you currently exhibiting?', 'Who is your agent?' or 'Who publishes your work?' usually reveals the truth that it's an expensive vanity project being subsidised by family or benefits.

But I understand the need to define yourself. No-one wants to say 'well, actually I'm on benefits which allows me to paint as a hobby.'

I don't know anyone who exists on art alone without extensive family support or having 'self-employed' status which allows them to claim housing/ council tax benefit (if you earn very little, which invariably they do).

mortgage and bills that is

But why belittle people by asking them awkward questions? I have a publisher but if people tell me they also write and I suspect they mean as a hobby, I don't ask them difficult questions to make them feel bad about it. Who cares if they are deluding themselves? (and plenty of writers don't get a publisher til they've actually written several novels)

I just think it's harmless. She may also come back to it later in life, if not, how great to have had 15 more exhibitions than most amateur artists.

hardgoing, ISWYM.
I think that many people doing 'ordinary' jobs feel sort of talked down to by people who describe thenselves as 'artists' but actually seem to have a hobby rather than a job, though, and I think this winds people up.
If you're a published writer, it may not hit such a raw nerve?

I haven't seen her work for slightly complicated reasons, but I assure you they're valid. But it's a good point that she's probably lacking skills in self-marketing - none of her work is on the internet. She has no agent. Only one of the shows was exclusively her work.

There's no question about it - I AM jealous. I wish I could paint. It's interesting to hear from the other side about the artistic process.

BTW, I don't ask people what they do. It's just how she describes herself.

Thanks for all your responses. I think I'll see what I can do about helping her with marketing.

The problem is that anyone can use many job titles - artist, poet, plumber, surveyor, writer, engineer - even racing driver.

There are very few which are restricted - by law mostly - such as solicitor, doctor (medical), architect, vet etc.

To me, unless someone has independent means they really should be able to justify their claim by earning a living wage.

I agree Plump, it is ordinary people who feel talked down to and belittled, not 'artists' who have bestowed a lofty title upon themselves. I'd no sooner describe myself as a political commentator, philosopher or raconteur. People do all of those things but it doesn't pay the rent.

I wouldn't want to make people feel bad about themselves but just understand how it comes across when describing yourself as an artist. It's a bit pretentious unless you treat it as a 9-5 and market yourself. I guess some people do though but it doesn't get anywhere and I know that is frustrating.

Nothing wrong with saying 'I'm a barman but I play in a band' or 'I'm an administrator but write poetry too'. I guess the awkwardness stems from not having another job and not wanting to say 'I'm on the dole but writing a novel'. I guess people would feel uncomfortable saying that.