To wonder why there isn't more ambition on Mumsnet to change the system?

[Differentname]

all with the argument "what do you expect, it can't be done " - when other countries prove it can! Recent thread examples - of course you can't expect to have job prospects after a long spell as a sahm - yet in Germany your job is kept open for you for up to three years for every child and you have a right to flexible working - and not just a right ton ask! Or: of course you can't expect to have paid leave for a sick child - yet other countries do it -

Why is there not more expectation on working practices to change to be more family -friendly?

my attempt at linking was not very successful, was it?

it was in Wikipedia, Demographics of Sweden

Yes I would too Bonsoir. Perhaps not all of it but a significant chunk.

Cory Swedens birth rate has gone up due to to the higher rate of 3rd and 4 th children against the traditional 2 child family in sweden. This is in part due to imigration and cultural norms of the imigrate population to have larger families.

Very interesting study here

www.demogr.mpg.de/papers/working/wp-2001-011.pdf

I am shouting at the radio right now listening to a debate about women's choices about working.
They are discussing universal affordable childcare as a way to give "women" the choice about working after they have had children..

As far as I know "women" are not the only humans that have children!!
Why why why is this discussion still going on as if women are solely responsible for juggling children and work??!!
OK, i actually am, but the majority of women with children are in partnerships, so why is all the anxiety and responsibility for work after kids put on the woman?
After the first year or so it doesn't matter which parent looks after the child.
As Desmond Morris said, all babies need a mother, but it doesn't have to be a woman.
I am not ranting about women who are happy with this set up, but a lot aren't.
Can you imagine listening to a radio discussion about this and substituting the word "men" for "women"?

Men have children too!! Why is nobody worrying about how men are going to juggle family and work??
Oh, and incidentally, women have lost 450000 jobs in the last set of figures.
This government imo is using the economic crisis to shove women back in the kitchen, remove their career options, and make it harder and harder to be financially autonomous.

Sorry if this is off the point-I haven't read the whole thread.
I am just really pissed off because when I was 18 I remember reading an article questioning whether "women could have it all" and I was livid at the time because even then I knew no-one ever questioned whether men can have it all.
It was just taken for granted that they can.

When are we going to get to take that for granted?

I agree that the issue of childcare is one that families face, not just women or mothers.

However, along with the issue of affordability of childcare, I also think that it is vital to keep the issue of quality of childcare (and not just in the baby years) at the top of our minds.

Sorry figure should have been 45000. Still a lot though!

I think what gets me, is that whenever the issue of working and children is raised it turns into women bickering amongst themselves about whether we should get more ML, or less, and whether nursery costs should be lower etc.

When do men discuss these issues?

What is needed is actual social change, so that the raising of children is viewed as a shared responsibility.

It will only be then that women's jobs will stop being seen as secondary, and not really as important or necessary as men's.

In Denmark, for e.g, ML is a block of time that can be shared between the man and the woman, however they choose.
Men are legally allowed to take all of it if they choose.

It has to stop being just about women, and we need to bring men into solving the problem, since they have, usually, 50 % of the responsibility for their children.

IMO men are getting increasingly interested in the quality of care and education that their small children receive (fathers have long been interested in the quality of education that their older children, particularly sons, receive). The strong media and governmental messages about the importance of early years is reaching their ears and they do talk about it, though not as much as mothers do.

Denmark may share the ML but still the number of men in top managerial positions outweighs the number of women significantly with women still dominating the public sectors and men overrepresented in the private sector.

No country has the perfect system

Thats true cantspel, and I am not holding up any one country as being a perfect model. But at least it's a start.