To wonder why there isn't more ambition on Mumsnet to change the system?

[Differentname]

all with the argument "what do you expect, it can't be done " - when other countries prove it can! Recent thread examples - of course you can't expect to have job prospects after a long spell as a sahm - yet in Germany your job is kept open for you for up to three years for every child and you have a right to flexible working - and not just a right ton ask! Or: of course you can't expect to have paid leave for a sick child - yet other countries do it -

Why is there not more expectation on working practices to change to be more family -friendly?

No dreaming I am not generalizing at all...

It is the norm since the 50's, when my FIL was still working... even at managerial level.

You were lucky..very lucky.

At the moment my DH is being forced to work overtime without overtime pay ...he actually pays to go to work (gas costs)

The sneaky employer gets round it ,by offering time off in respect of over time worked.

My husband works with men who have to work beyond retirement, to keep their younger wives health insurance.

There is nothing about the system that works...

Sorry feminine, maybe we are talking about different parts of the US then. I worked on the east coast for nearly 20 years, had many jobs, obviously knew many people with many different jobs, and it definitely was not the norm in a salaried job to have no holiday at all the first year. Maybe you would have only a week and then it would increase, but you would not have nothing at all.

I was not lucky. I probably just worked in a different city than your family.

I agree the US is messed up but the system is not uniformly bad. I'm not disputing your own experience but it's not necessarily the same for everyone in the US.

It does make a difference where you are based ,I agree :)

and yes,the East coast is light years ahead..true.

The other thing is, this 2 week thing can go on for years...you can be entitled to that time off after 20 years sometimes

With the mess the US is in now, things are even more dire...

Actually we looked at employment laws for this state the other day,it was shocking!

Ah, that explains it

I've heard in the south and west employment rights are awful! Sorry you're having to deal with that.

I think it shows, though, that part of the problem with comparisons to other countries is that there's so much variation within countries, not just geographically but by sector, age, etc.

not a homogenous group or site with a definitive ideals, as such I fail to see how you could turn it into a goal orientated site without fundamentally changing it or alienating many users.
I already cringe at how some people on here view it as being some political powerhouse rather than just a very successful forum with a unique trait.

Thanks dreaming we are coming home in February.

My sister has lived in Norway for 16 years.

As we know, they have a system many aspire to...but at a very high taxation.

everything has its price doesn't it? and its probably futile to compare. :)

I think every country should look around for examples of the best way of doing things, rather than accept the status quo.

Germany has done a lot for families in the last few years, e.g paternal leave, improving kindergarten availability (cost is means tested), but then I think the school system is way poorer than in other countries. Kids are sorted into different school types at a young age, anyone deemed not 'normal' enough gets dumped in special schools.
(Our kindergarten has 45 kids, (ages 2-6y), 5 qualified fulltime kindergarten teachers, 2 students, 2 helpers.)

I think people with SN do have it tougher - old cities, narrow doors, cobble stones don't help people with mobility issues. (New builds have to ensure access.) On the other hand companies of a certain size must employ a percentage of people with a disability, or else pay fees, and once employed they can almost never be fired.

In Belgium there is tax deductible childcare, maternelle from 2.5, parental leave, good health system, good education system, sick child cover.....but tax and ss contributions are astronomical - and as others have said most UK parents would be horrified by the way creches etc are run here - More like 8 babies (or more) to one person.

I'd say there's a huge passivity and lack of political knowledge/interest in general.

People seem to think nothing can be done. About anything.

But in some of these countries which you are envious of most women don't go back to work because it's not the done thing.

(And the women tend to be teachers and nurses - basically like the UK a loooong time ago)

Basically a lot of them are a more sexist (and often racist) society - which I wouldn't want to belong to.

In my part of the world you don't get any annual leave for the first year, although the fact that we have 17 public holidays helps! (in my profession we have to work most of those days, though.)
I got three months' mat leave on full pay (by law). You don't get leave for sick children, or free childcare.
There's a free public health system but it's so overburdened that those who can afford it pay for private care.
There are (means-tested) pensions & disability grants but they are minimal. Small benefits for the desperately poor too. But you certainly can't live on them indefinitely or comfortably as people in the UK seem to be able to.

What system? Why assume we all living in the same one or view it in the same way?

And what big assumptions you make by assuming that a) people don't have plenty of ambition to change things and b) that they aren't doing plenty to actually change it?

What exactly are you doing to be so high above us all?

MANIC, AGREE!!!! i just get bothered about the UK when there is such terrible shit going on around the world. I count me blessings

I was thinking of starting a thread something like this when I was told 'public sector employees are 'spoilt' because we (in the NHS) get 3 days pro-rata carers' leave in a 12 month period, to let us look after sick children' Lots of people seemed to think nobody should get paid if they take time off for this. Again in the countries mentioned here they get far more than that, by law.

The prevailing attitude seemed to be 'think yourself lucky to have a job'. I know I am lucky to have MY job as it suits me very well, even though I am quite overqualified for it and I could be earning a lot more if I sacrificed time with my children. However, I also believe my employer is lucky to have me, being so overqualified and all, I am able to take on tasks not normally given to people of my grade, I am very good at it, and I work hard and take very little time off sick either for myself or dc.

In the end the employers and the economy benefit by keeping skilled people in their workforce. I don't know what the ideal is, but certainly not the American way. I think that the move towards longer leave shared between parents is a good thing.

YABU. Not everyone is sitting back doing nothing. I've just done a masters degree in HR Management because I know there are issues and I want to make a difference. I am going to meet the people at Parent Zone who run Mumsnet's Family Friendly audit function to see if I can do some work for them.

I have written a dissertation about maternity leave and benefits for employees AND employers that my supervisor thinks I should publish in the national media (gulp - I'm not so sure I'm up to this).

I have written articles for magazines about taking maternity and parental leave and how to negotiate the current process.

I am an active member of the #frothers campaigning for change in many areas that are just not good enough or we need to hang onto.

IMHO, the key to change is better, affordable childcare and flexible and part-time working for everybody who wants it. Not just parents, but people with caring responsibilities (including elderly relatives) or who just want to have greater work life balance.

I really think if we had more flexible working and job shares we'd have more employment and increased taxes and also increased spending.

what do you mean by 'change the system' you can't just pick all the 'good' bits out and ignore the bits you do not like.
simple question - are you willing to pay considerably more in taxes in order to improve the 'freebies' from the state/your employer

This Document gives lots of interesting stats on all of this.

United Kingdom

1. Female employment in the UK is high, 65.6% of women are in work compared to an OECD average of 59.6% of women.

1. The United Kingdom has the 11th highest fertility rate in the OECD. In the UK on average 1.94 children are born per woman. In the OECD the average is 1.74.

1. The most recent poverty figures show that the UK is mid-range. In the United Kingdom around 10% of children are living in poverty compared to an OECD average of 12.7%. Since the crisis the UK child poverty rate is predicted to have risen.

1. In 2005 the UK had one of the smallest average household sizes in the OECD (higher only than two other countries). On average 2.12 people live in each UK household, the OECD average is 2.63 persons per household.

1. In 2007 the United Kingdom was the fourth highest spending OECD country on

cash transfers to families (spending 2.1% of GDP). The 8th highest spender on services (1.1% of GDP) and 11th highest spender on tax breaks (0.3% of GDP).

Says stats like this about every country in the OECD.

I think the issue about taxes is the crunch one. tbh I get fed up of people moaning that they want the state to provide more, like they do in other countries - but without any increase in taxes. Good quality services cost. Our childcare is of a higher standard than a lot - although not all - comparable countries. But we pay more for our childcare than many of those other countries.

Of course some tnings don't take extra taxes, but a lot do.

'flexible and part-time working for everybody who wants it. Not just parents, but people with caring responsibilities (including elderly relatives) or who just want to have greater work life balance'

Yes indeed. Because how dare people not realise it is our God given right to waltz in and out of the job market as and when we wish.

Jesus, no wonder Britain is in the state its in with the constant sense of entitlemnet that prevails.
Oh, and as an aside, anyone who talks of their 'work/life balance with a straight face, needs taking into a dark alley and given a good going over.

If you have a part time of flexible job it's easier to stay in employment because you can fit in the other stuff that often prevents people from staying in employment (child or caring responsibilities).

If everyone is doing something (ie working flexibly) then it becomes the norm. If it's just something parents do then it makes us out for special attention and resentment.

Grow up and stop moaning.

What ARE you on about Moondog?

dreamingbohemian You've been lucky I guess. Every job I had there was hourly and I didn't get anything. The last job I had before I came to the UK had no paid bank holidays and I got 5 days paid holiday after being there three years. The only people I know who had any decent paid time off were in union jobs. Every hourly job I've had here has given me 20 days holiday and paid bank holidays, plus statutory sick pay and two weeks paternity pay. I LOVE it here!

Don't forget how far we have come in recent years. When I took my first lot of mat leave, less than 17 years ago, I only got 12 weeks off, and I think only 6 of them were paid. The nursery was full of 6-wk old babies. And you had to have been working in the company for two years before you were entitled to any mat pay. There was also no financial help for childcare until DS went into his pre-school year of nursery, so progress has come on in leaps and bounds in the last 16 years.

Curly well I could say you've been lucky in the UK!

I had hourly jobs as well in the US and yes, you don't get anything. I only had holidays with my salaried jobs.

However I found the same with the hourly jobs I had in the UK, as did my DH.