To wonder why there isn't more ambition on Mumsnet to change the system?

[Differentname]

all with the argument "what do you expect, it can't be done " - when other countries prove it can! Recent thread examples - of course you can't expect to have job prospects after a long spell as a sahm - yet in Germany your job is kept open for you for up to three years for every child and you have a right to flexible working - and not just a right ton ask! Or: of course you can't expect to have paid leave for a sick child - yet other countries do it -

Why is there not more expectation on working practices to change to be more family -friendly?

I totally agree, op.

I think it's because in the UK children are seen as some kind of personal indulgence like buying a new car whereas in other cultures they are seen as an essential asset to the country.

I think we are exceptionally lucky to live in the UK. That is why so many people from around the world want to come and work here.

In Germany plain old income tax isn't the killer, but the pension, social security and health insurance payments. All adds up to almost 50% of my wage. But having lived in a few different systems, I prefer everyone pays more, to ensure that the weakest in society are supported. Otherwise the
divide between the 'Haves' and the 'Have nots' just gets bigger, and social cohesion starts to crumble.

yes you are right amicissima! I would be happy to personally pay higher taxes for better provision. But most people aren't.

I do wish people would stop holding up Germany as some sort of utopia with everyone paying lots of tax and reaping all the benefits with out a poor person in sight.
There are more than 3 millon children in Germany who are living in poverty. there is no minimum wage and the gap between the haves and have nots is getting wider every year. People might be paying more but the poor are still poor.

Nobody really gives a toss about poor people any more.
I mean genuinely poor people who have lived from hand to mouth since they were born.
It's usually always the have's who are fighting for more who get the news coverage not the have nots who try to get a basic existence deal.
Poor people in general don't organise themselves to make a difference.

Jesus Moondog, get back down the mine and put in a 14-hour shift and stop arsing about on Mumsnet; you have absolutely no entitlement to any down time whatsoever. Get working, get working, get working!!!!!!!!!

I worked for an American company when I lived in the UK, and had to negotiate all my UK employment rights before signing the contract - 25 days annual leave, maternity rights, end of employment notice period, etc, etc. I was so surprised by how different the two systems were.

And when I told them I was going to take a year's maternity leave, you could have knocked them down with a feather!

Reading back i'm stunned to see that a university education gives you the right to speak for other people.
Absolutely stunned.

Standards of living are pretty good in the uk compared to other countries. I think many of these things are grey areas too. I certainly don't see this lack of ambition you describe op. To use your example of maternity leave- it has increased from 12 weeks to one year here! As for jobs being kept open for 3 years like in Germany- well, not all women want that! I wouldn't want 3 years off after every child- goodness, Many women would be out of work for a decade or more!

Back to the OP, I agree in principle, and IMO the big womens issues to be won are working people and childcare, and equalising womens' pay.

But there is also a " beware of what you wish for" issue, eg protecting a job for 3 years is unsustainable for a small company. So, as job benefits grow, fewer permanent jobs are offered and instead there are far more temp contracts (without those benefits).

Love the point that many people want those wealthier than themselves to pay more tax :)

xyfactor where does it say that? I think I must have missed that post. Could you elaborate please?

I don't think protecting a job for three years would work. Not in the UK any time soon.

From the (limited) research I've done, women with flexible working or whose employers are perceived to be receptive to flexible working are more likely to return after maternity leave and return earlier.

If your job and your other responsibilities are balanced and childcare is both available and affordable, women are more likely to return to and stay with their employers. Obviously some jobs are more flexible than others but sometimes requests are turned down because the employer just cannot comprehend anything other than a full time, on site, Mon-Fri job. The reality is there is often some flex if people think a bit.

Another part of the solution is to share care equally between the two parents (where there are two parents). If the second parent uses additional paternity leave that means a much shorter period out of the workplace for both parents and less impact on their respective employers. If, for example, they both returned to a four day week of compressed hours (ie full time) then they are both doing their jobs, paying taxes and contributing to the economy but they also save 2 days a week on childcare costs.

There are solutions already out there that work for employers, workers and to the benefit of the wider economy. However, removing the stigma that flexible working or taking time out of the workplace is just for parent's would help. If something is thought to be the norm people question it much less.

Best op I've seen on here for years

Well said op

The cheaper-childcare-elsewhere cry, which is pretty common in the UK, often fails to point out that countries with cheaper childcare usually have much lower standards of childcare... UK childcare is expensive because we want children treated as individuals and not institutionalised at an early age.

Bonsoir Fri 16-Dec-11 09:03:43
"The cheaper-childcare-elsewhere cry, which is pretty common in the UK, often fails to point out that countries with cheaper childcare usually have much lower standards of childcare... "

I haven't got the impression that Scandinavian childcare is of a lower standard.

That's true Bonsoir but if your only option is profit making that's more expensive than a not-for-profit enterprise.

My childcare bill for one child in outer London borough is £16,000 per annum. Ie I have to earn £24,000 gross just to pay for that.

French, Belgian, Italian and Spanish childcare is generally of a much lower standard than British.

Perhaps because some of us might be employers????

KateMiddleton - I think that making childcare properly tax deductible for all would be progress.

bakingaddict Thu 15-Dec-11 14:55:20
"As far as I know countries like Norway, Sweden etc that have seemingly superior healthcare and childcare benefits employees have to pay %50 in tax. I've read that the majority of people in these countries are employed in the public sector and that moving around in jobs is pretty impossible as once you get a job you stay put."

If the majority of the population is in the public sector, where does the money come from to fund the public sector?

for a bit of hearsay, most of the members of my large extended Swedish family are employed in the private sector, several of them have changed jobs recently and one person has started up his own successful firm straight after college: other relatives have been running their own firms for many years, again successfully- so you clearly don't have to sit around in a public sector job if you don't want to

However, there are things that are free in the UK and not in Sweden: visits to the doctor for instance, and food if you are in hospital. Personally, I think these are good things to keep free in a country like ours where there is a sizeable part of the population whom one suspects would keep off visiting the doctor if they were charged. So don't let's emulate Sweden in everything!

I also have a strong suspicion (supported by Kladdkaka on other threads) that the British justice system is more open and transparent; that is something precious to hold onto.

And I'd rather not see any more Swedish free schools in the UK.

I'm getting a touch of the "Yes Ministers" about this.

There will be no Mumsnet ambition to change the system as there will be no consensus on priorities. (In Yes Minister, this was Sir Humphried as the reason Britain would never have a military coup- the Army Air Force and Navy would never agree on enough to at together).

If you had a disabled child, or a dementing parent; would you still put detail of right to return after maternity leave at the heart of your wish list?

"Nobody really gives a toss about poor people any more.
I mean genuinely poor people who have lived from hand to mouth since they were born.
It's usually always the have's who are fighting for more who get the news coverage not the have nots who try to get a basic existence deal.
Poor people in general don't organise themselves to make a difference".

Excellent post.

Aside from the handwringing during Comic Relief, the genuinely poor people across the globe receive next to no coverage on British TV (other than in charity adverts).

a very good article about the falling birth rate in germany
and the variations between east and west

You might want 3 years leave but it clearly isn't working for your average german worman

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/15/germany-baby-making-gender-wars

otoh Sweden has had a rising birth rate and population growth since 2000 (though it went down heavily through most of the 20th century), so it's all a bit confusing

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but suggestions have also been made that a longer parental leave is not necessarily good for women's careers= equality and this may well be true