to think my parents ABU about Chanukah?

[boatdeliah]

My parents are coming over for Chanukah (flying out in a few days) they live in Israel and inbetween 2 Dcs and another on the way we don't get to fly out and see them and my Mum hates flying.

However DH was raised in a not very religious liberal jewish family and his family has always done a big thing on Christmas day (if it falls during Chanukah) so lots of people around, an extra present on top of normal Chanukah and will have a tree.

I am Israeli and was raised in a Haredi jewish community (came to the UK at 16 with family, eventually they went back to Israel and I stayed here - somehow - and moved away from the ulta-orthodox I was brought up in)

My family obviously had concerns about DH but he is Jewish so in the end....it is fine.

Anyway talking to my mum tonight she was asking about if DHs family would be coming around at anytime (1 sibling lives close the parents and other siblings don't)
I told her about 25th and his families traditions - which me and DH are choosing to echo with our DCs. I have told her before

She hit the roof.

And after much frantic loud words with my Mum (with DC1 giving me funny looks because of the very loud hebrew)

Her and My Dad don't want to be a part of the 'Christmas' celebrations.
Explained that it isn't 'Christmas' but everyone has it off, DHs family have always had a tree - and it just sits in the corner of our living room. And they dont have to do the extra present thing.

But no - they will not be a part of it at all.

Well what am I meant to do? I asked what they would do - just sit in the other room praying?

They are insiting that they will not be a part of the 'Christmas' celebrations on 25th will do the 'normal' bit then retreat to their room for the rest of it and take their food up their (dont get me started on how difficult it is tying to do full kashrut for us all for a week - I had forgotten what it was like)

I didn't know what to say - I said DC2 was crying and had to go (they weren't)

DH thinks we should say that if they are here then they have to accept that we do it our way (well apart from synagogue - going on a treck to get to Hareldi/orthodox one) and if they dont want to be involved then that is fine - but they cant be involved in any of it (on that day) and certainly no giving them food in their room

I think that is a bit harsh - but well they are at someone elses for the time and that is the way we do.

AIBU to tell them no - not doing anything special for them ?

I feel for you as you are in a really difficult situation OP. My family are not at all religious so I am not familiar with this kind of dilema however, I cannot see why your parents can't show some tolerance for the customs and beliefs of your DHs family as they would surely expect if someone was visiting their home? By retreating to their room they are being extremely rude in my opinion.

Oh dear, you poor thing. Of course YANBU - on the other hand, that's not really the point, is it? They are Haredi and are obviously not going to want to participate in Christmas. You are an adult and have made your own life choices. Which you are perfectly entitled to do, but they're just not going to feel good about it are they?

Often in these situations it works best if everyone just turns a bit of a blind eye. The mistake here was for them to come over at this time of year. In Israel, they can maybe just pretend they don't know what's going on in your household. But they can't sustain that denial sitting in front of a Christmas tree.

Is there any way you can get them out of the house on the day, to give them an honourable exit? Is there a frum Jewish friend who can invite them over for the day?

Do they drive? Can they hire a car, or borrow yours and go exploring for the day? The roads will be so quiet, and they can avoid any "festivities".

YANBU

I'm an atheist; DH is a non-practicing muslim whose parents live abroad. For the last two years we spent one of the Eids with PIL - if only because that's when BILs are also going and it's nice for DH to see all of his family together.

It simply wouldn't occur to me to ask PIL to make any special provisions for us. The guys all go to the mosque on eid, the women do their prayer thing at home. That's the only bit that we don't take part in.

DH simply sits on the couch while everyone else is praying; I tend to take my tea and go sit outside because it makes me feel a bit awkward. Apart from that, we both participate in everything they do. I'd feel really rude about asking them to be hosting some kind of a secular party because I don't subscribe to their belief system.

In your case, there's also the fact that your kids have presumably come to love their version of christmas and look forward to it. For that reason alone your parents should behave in a more grown-up fashion.

I've just read a bit about Chanukuh and, from what I can see, it is not particularly important in a religious sense. In fact, many have incorporated 'Christmas' into Chanukah.

As your mother has hit the roof, I presume she is of a particularly strong Jewish section (if you see what I mean)?

She must have known that this would fall at Christmas and I think she is being unreasonable in expecting you to bow to her wishes. I think there is more going on here i.e. she resents her grandchildren celebrating Christmas?

They must either go out for the day, or assimilate into your way of doing things.

YANBU however unfortunately nothing causes conflict quite like religion.

Tell them your Christmas tree is a Hanukkah bush ;)

On a more serious note though, giving a gift and guests hardly makes for celebrating Christmas. Christmas trees are a pagan tradition I believe too, and really nothing to do with Christianity.

They are unlikely to see they ABU though, so you need to think about what is easiest for all involved (ie how much pandering to their requests are you prepared to do to avoid conflict?)

It is hard. I tried to introduce a tree into our home last Xmas and DH could not take it at all. He just described it as a strong emotional negative gut reaction. He knew it was not rational but could not help it. He had a fairly orthodox but nowhere as observant as Haredi and he could not take it.

I second Hester's suggestions of farming them out for the day.

I don't know about trying to emphasise the British aspect rather than the Christian one.

Leaving them out is not the same as doing something special though. Let them do their own thing as long as it's made clear they are not welcome to be passive aggressive and spoil yours (obviously worded for slightly hysterical parents).
There are loads of threads on here with similar problems re cultural differences. I think the general consensus is that it would be rude to not make them welcome but ruder for them to spoil your day (it being your life and your house).
Christmas trees were only part of Christmas since Victorian times anyway. Don't think Jesus had much to do with them TBH.

OldGrey My parents, my family I me (till I was about 18) are/were Haredi jewish (it is about as ultra-orthodox as you can get)

NotaDude the DCs and neices/nephews (and actually us adults) love that they get to have a present every day and one on 25th and get food everyday and get a tree and actually make their friends jealous with it :P

Unfortunatly my mum cant drive and my dad has has surgery recently and cant drive.
Hmmm - might see if our old rabbi (when we all came over when I was 16 could entertain them - he's nice)

chanukah bush - love it :)

They don't come over for Chanukah every year though do they? If not I would be tempted to ditch the Christmas tree this year, if you have it you will clearly have no fun handling them grumbling while you are here. Maybe I am a wuss but your family can always do more Christmassy things other years and if it's only a tree, does it really matter? You can still have nice food and presents and decorate the house with fairy lights if you want.

doh - while they are here

a difficult one - you are already going out of your way to keep kashrut and trek to the orthodox synagogue - OTOH you are the one who has 'changed' in their eyes so they think their views are 'normal', which they are to them.

While it's perfectly normal to celebrate christmas as a cultural (or secular) holiday here in the UK - in Israel I know it is firmly a religious festival for christians (most of whom are Palestinians), but with political overtones due to Bethlehem being on the West Bank! I suspect they cannot begin to really understand the difference between primarily secular/family holiday (UK) and primarily religious/political celebration (Israel). I suspect you are plugging into some very deep issues for them here .

my instinct (from a non-Jewish perspective and not knowing your parents!) would be to say to them "that's fine, we don't expect you to join in anything you are not comfortable with - I suppose we have just got very used to seeing this as a cultural, not religious, festival - as many Jews in the UK do. It would be nice for DHs family to see you, but we really understand if you are not able to join in".

If you give them permission to opt out then they might give themselves permission to opt in! The key thing is to try to escape from the trap of seeing it as being about right or wrong - you're both right IMO but just need to find a way to feel comfortable with your differences.

good luck!

I kind of know partly why re whole secular/political/religious thing with christmas (I had the same thing when I left the community)
and no Le Haven't seen them in about 4 years in the flesh. Food is still the normal food we would eat at chanukah (plus more) and it is just an extra present.
I know it is only a tree - but DH loves decorating it with the DCs and should we really tell them (5 and will be 3) that we aren't having a tree because Savta and Sabba are around? (they have plenty of time to find out the indricticities of Haredi - at the moment they just now about kashrut and the hats/wigs and find it hilarious)

Intolerance is alive and well even in the Jewish community.
I'm not having a sly dig i'm just supporting you by being honest.
It must be very hard for you specially at christmas.
Do what you normally do and everyone will just have to lump it.

I don't see either side being unreasonable -- except possibly for arranging the visit during this time of year during a year with a clash, but I've had my own family issues with that to the point I avoid family visits at this time of year like the plague regardless.

They don't want to take part in Christmas celebrations so are removing themselves and keeping to themselves while you get on with what you are planning on doing. I don't really see a better option -- would it better they sat around uncomfortably while you tried to celebrate? Discussed the irony that a holiday commonly used as an example of cultural assimilation among many groups is at the same time of year as a holiday to remember people who fought and died rather than assimilate into the more powerful majority? Withdraw is likely the best for everyone, even if it is still awkward, it allows you all the greatest amount of peace and comfort.

They don't want to participate and have already said that they will stay in their room while you guys get on with it. While its not ideal, they are respecting your wishes on your Christmas celebration. You should respect them of their religious choices.

YABU for not allowing them to eat in their room.

If there are aspects that they are not comfortable with and can't reconcile with their beliefs then why would you pressure them to take part? Their suggestion seems perfectly reasonable, and I don't get why Dh is saying either they eat with us in a circumstance they feel uncomfortable in or not at all?

So they will have breakfast with us and do prays (with them there we will do readings as well) then they will go to their room and not appear till night to light candles.
Gues DH feels like that about food because you dont have guests and then get told by them that they will eat in their room (didn't ask - told us)

I'm sorry but that makes me feel awkward nowing my parents would be upstairs in their room while us and DHs family are all around stuffing our faces. we don't do presents around tree (at breakfast after prayers/readings)
So we don't use the tree in that way. Plus what they will refuse to go into living room because the tree will be up the entire time they are here?

Am I wrong in assuming that its only Christmas Day that they have issue with, right? Having a tree up isn't the problem for them is my understanding. They seem to be able to tolerate the tree just not actively celebrating Christmas, right?

But we aren't celebrating Christmas.
Mum did mention the tree and decorations - but seemed okay with it - think their objects come from being Haredi rather than 'christmas'.

they get one (DCs and adults) extra little present - usually the present plus gelt.
if there is a 'main' present we will give that on 23rd (the 5th day - day after Shabbat) not on 25th
The food is still oil based, still 'jewish'
It is just that we have family around as families who do christmas do.

We just do more stuff on that day is it clashes with Christmas - to me that isn't celebrating christmas

But to them it is, obviously, and they are uncomfortable with themselves participating, in what they percieve as a pagan/xtian celebration, they are not trying to stop you doing what you want.

Why can't you just be accepting of differences, and not make a big deal about it? Accept they don't want ti be there, they see things differently to you, and just get on with it.

I am accepting of differences - it isn't like they became Haredi after I left home. I found some of DH families 25th traditions uncomfortable when we first met - to such an exent that his family actually toned them down (his parents understood it)
So what ? they fly all that way to spend a day in their room - I find that rude when you are a guest in someones house. and would make me, DH and his whole family very uncomfortable.
Esp when they know that DH feels uncomfortable going to our old synogogue but is going because that is what me parents do (I don't care - it was what I was raised with)
So DH has to do something he is uncomfortable with and yet they can't even stand in a room?

My friends came to my ds first b day they ate and played but when it was time to cut the cake they took a walk for 5 mins as they don't celebrate birthdays.

I was just happy they came, made the effort to keep ties with us, our dcs played together etc and rather they did that then didn't come.

Its one day in X many days of their visit. Its not like they flew in specifically for the 25th and they fly out the next day.

Since its going to make you and your DH uncomfortable, the best solution is to talk to your former rabbi and see if they can meet up with old friends on that day. Up in their room or away with old friends, they are still not celebrating Christmas day with you but at least with old friends, they'll get to eat.

From what I have read, Chanuka is a red herring.

They expect you and your DH to compromise to their beliefs and feelings but do not do the same for you.

Take Xmas/Chanuka out of the equation. Imagine it was your DCs birthday. How would you react then?