to think my parents ABU about Chanukah?

[boatdeliah]

My parents are coming over for Chanukah (flying out in a few days) they live in Israel and inbetween 2 Dcs and another on the way we don't get to fly out and see them and my Mum hates flying.

However DH was raised in a not very religious liberal jewish family and his family has always done a big thing on Christmas day (if it falls during Chanukah) so lots of people around, an extra present on top of normal Chanukah and will have a tree.

I am Israeli and was raised in a Haredi jewish community (came to the UK at 16 with family, eventually they went back to Israel and I stayed here - somehow - and moved away from the ulta-orthodox I was brought up in)

My family obviously had concerns about DH but he is Jewish so in the end....it is fine.

Anyway talking to my mum tonight she was asking about if DHs family would be coming around at anytime (1 sibling lives close the parents and other siblings don't)
I told her about 25th and his families traditions - which me and DH are choosing to echo with our DCs. I have told her before

She hit the roof.

And after much frantic loud words with my Mum (with DC1 giving me funny looks because of the very loud hebrew)

Her and My Dad don't want to be a part of the 'Christmas' celebrations.
Explained that it isn't 'Christmas' but everyone has it off, DHs family have always had a tree - and it just sits in the corner of our living room. And they dont have to do the extra present thing.

But no - they will not be a part of it at all.

Well what am I meant to do? I asked what they would do - just sit in the other room praying?

They are insiting that they will not be a part of the 'Christmas' celebrations on 25th will do the 'normal' bit then retreat to their room for the rest of it and take their food up their (dont get me started on how difficult it is tying to do full kashrut for us all for a week - I had forgotten what it was like)

I didn't know what to say - I said DC2 was crying and had to go (they weren't)

DH thinks we should say that if they are here then they have to accept that we do it our way (well apart from synagogue - going on a treck to get to Hareldi/orthodox one) and if they dont want to be involved then that is fine - but they cant be involved in any of it (on that day) and certainly no giving them food in their room

I think that is a bit harsh - but well they are at someone elses for the time and that is the way we do.

AIBU to tell them no - not doing anything special for them ?

I would react the same, and I did, as far as I can see op is just getting offended foe no reason, and feels guests staying in her house have to comprise their beliefs, and her Dh has no strong beliefs but is uncomfortable in a religious setting but will go in order to please his mil, therefore they, who do have strong beliefs should ignore them for a while in order to pleAs their dd.

Don't you think that being religious and everything, they are going to be more worried about offending god then offending you?

I just can't understand the mentality of an etiquette that forces guests to be uncomfortable and ignore their beliefs in order to prevent offence to host.

At least when they take Dh to synagogue it is out of a belief it is beneficial for him.

To be fair, there are other values and beliefs than purely religious ones that also deserve respect. Being religious does not, IMO, give anyone the right to spoil the mood by sulking - especially not where children are concerned!

From my own secular perspective, I would also have to doubt the morality of prioritizing god's supposed offense. Wasn't god supposed to be generous and forgiving?

The OP and her DH said "they have to accept that we do it our way and if they don't want to be involved that is fine, but they can't be involved in any of it on Christmas day and no food in their room."

Except for the no food in room, they are respecting the OP and her DH's wishes. They accept having the tree up when they normally don't it at all. They are not asking the OP to change her Christmas day plans just that they will not participate for 90% of it.

I get that.

The thing is: if I were having a family celebration and my mother was sitting in her room having food and refusing to share in our thing because she disagrees I would, ...

a) feel guilty and hurt by her disapproval and
b) feel angry because I'm letting myself be manipulated

... which IMO kills the mood.

I think the best thing for OP's parents would be to either go have food at a restaurant (hotels serve even on the 25th) or eat with friends. Or, of course, to simply accept that different people live differently and that this may include their offspring.

That's why I said the best solution is for the OP to move forward with her suggestion of contacting her rabbi and see if they have something going on at the synagogue or contact old family friends to see if its ok to have her parents over for Christmas Day.

If she and her DH begrudge ferrying her parents to and from the synagogue or old friends' home on Christmas Day, then get taxi service for her parents.

If the worst case scenario is for them to be in their room, then help them find them a restaurant where they can eat and get them taxi service. Or when everyone is sitting down for dinner, pop upstairs and invite them to eat in the kitchen and then they can go back to their room.

OP is going to feel guilty regardless if her parents are in their room or somewhere else. Yes, it is going to be awkward but his family know that her parents are Haredi Jews so they will expect the lack of participation. They toned down some of their celebrations for her.

What are you actually doing differently to what you would be doing if the 25th wasn't Christmas Day?

If I'm understanding right they'd get far more Christmas by eating out than they would being wtih their family.

Given that the 24th and 25th are a weekend, and the 26th is the bank holiday, could you move the big family celebration to a different day?
basically, keep the new customs your DHs family has, but take the "omg you're celebrating Christmas! " thing out of it by moving when they happen? I appreciate that it may be late in the day for this...

Yabu to expect Haredi to be flexible.

Yabu to suggest a Xmas tree represents anything except Xmas (doesn't matter that it doesn't have a long history, that is what it represents today)

Yanbu to find the whole thing upsetting - your dps are making their disapproval clear. I think you just have to tell yourself it is their problem, not yours.

my best mate is Jewish, lives in Philadelphia, her synagogue are so amazing. they contacted local care homes to see what projects they could take on for them during hanuka, one of the homes asked if they could put up the Xmas Decs. they allll found it hilarious and did it. even the rabbi. I thought it was amazing. my Jehovah's witness friend would never ever do anything like that. everyone else's religious belief is wrong if its not hers. no point to my take but it shows I thought think how modern times can make religion less of a barrier. orthodox is much less tolerant. i suppose

tryingtoleave, I agree. I don't think you will find any haredi agreeing to go along with this.

deliah I think your best option is to try and arrange a day out for them on the the 25th.

I'm British, married to an Israeli, living in Israel. My dh is as secular as they come, but for the first few years of me living here, he couldn't face the thought of a tree in our house. It's only since we had kids and I insisted that the kids get to know my family traditions as well as his (I was secular c of e, but converted to judaism before we married so our kids would be jewish) that we have had a tree. Now, the tree goes up on christmas eve and comes down on boxing day!

I remember years ago (before I had kids and before I converted) I was feeling very homesick one christmas, and I invited friends round for drinks on christmas eve, in an attempt to feel a bit "merry." At first they said yes, but then refused because they didn't feel comfortable "celebrating" christmas :(

Lo lidog, hacol ihiay bseder! ze rak yom ahad, sach hacol.

YANBU to be able to do what you want in your own house, however...

Tree/decorations = Christmas I know a lot of secular Jews do it, but as a relatively observant Jew, I kind of get your parents' horror. It's going one stage further than being less frum, it's taking on other religions' (whether Christian or pagan) practices which must bother your parents given their religiousity. You need to find a middle ground where they accept that you are no longer religious but that you accept that to them, it's not just a tree.

The meal - do your parents realise that everything (except for the Israeli cafes in NW London) is closed on Christmas day? People get together as families to spend time together, which often goes alongside a meal. It sounds as though you don't do traditional Christmas food, so is there really a problem? Present giving can always be masked as Chanukah giving...

Not sure if this would antagonise, but is there any way you could host family for Shabbat lunch (Christmas eve), Christmas style - a bit more tongue in cheek as you'd get away with Turkey and the usual English trimmings for a Shabbat meal anyway? Then there's always the possibility to find your parents a playdate with old friends on Christmas day proper and for you to perhaps go to inlaws so your parents can still feel comfortable in your home?

turkish shops are generally open, some pubs, some indian restaurants etc, i wouldnt say everything is closed, cabs charge double though.

i know that a lot of mosques have islamic events on 25th as they know everyone is of work, and they dont have anything to do, so they have lectures etc, maybe Jewish centres may do this too?

I think you should try to make your parents feel welcome, and to make some quite reasonable concessions to what you would do if they weren't with you in order to make them feel good.

FWIW, the secular Jewish mothers at school who try to celebrate "Christmas" with trees, meals, parties etc at DD's secular school make me feel ill...

Respect your own traditions and extend the same respect to those of others...

Tell you what, the Christmas tree is a pre christian tradition that evolved from Scandinavia, and has nothing to do with Christianity, but is a heathen tradition. So in fact, your Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus, and his birth (which was in summer), and everything to do with performing animal sacrifice midwinter, or Jol in old norse, also called "midtvintersblot" midwinter sacrifice, traditionally on winter solstice. The entire celebratory room was painted red in animal blood - hence RED is the traditional Christmas colour. When Scandinavia was Christened, they made away with the animal sacrifices (with great difficulty) and room paintings, but kept the tree because they could not take away all of it in one swoop. The tree has stayed, but lost its connection to these pre - christian traditions....

So, maybe not is so big conflict with Jewish tradition then....

erm. Long shot.

Funny thing, religion. I know Jews who celebrate Christmas. I know atheists who celebrate Christmas (I am one). I know Hindus and Muslims who celebrate Christmas.

The only person I know who doesn't celebrate Christmas is a Jehovah's Witness.

YANBU but in her mind neither is she so you're a bit stuck, I'm afraid. (Sorry for leas helpful comment ever.)

I personally think your parents are being very rude. It's a tree! And a tradition which had been abandoned for years in this country until Victorian times. It has nothing to do with Christianity.

If they don't get to see you often, I think they are being very antisocial not to spend what will presumably be a kosher meal with their family. Sitting upstairs indeed! My parents wouldn't get served!!

What are you actually doing that is celebrating Christmas?
Why is your 'Christmas dinner' not just another dinner with family?
Can you not make it so it is?

My family is Muslim and we've always had 'Christmas' dinner for as long as I can remember. My mum, who is very religious, just shrugs it off and says it's a family dinner on a day everyone is off. She would have more of an issue with the tree than with a traditional Xmas dinner.

I had every sympathy for you, OP, until I read this post from you:

I am accepting of differences - it isn't like they became Haredi after I left home. I found some of DH families 25th traditions uncomfortable when we first met - to such an exent that his family actually toned them down (his parents understood it)
So what ? they fly all that way to spend a day in their room - I find that rude when you are a guest in someones house. and would make me, DH and his whole family very uncomfortable.

So - your DH's family toned down their own traditions in their home because you were uncomfortable, yet you can't understand that your parents are uncomfortable with your traditions?

Your parents are Haredi. Surely you can't be surprised that they have a problem with a Christmas tree etc?

But they don't have a problem with the tree according to the OP. She said that her mother was fine with it even though they don't like it.

Its likely all the other Christmas traditions on that day that the parents' don't want to participate in. Maybe its the idea that they are doing a big dinner for Christmas instead of their usual dinner.

The OP said it isn't Christmas celebration just a family gathering that happened to fall on Christmas Day. If it was just that a big family dinner then maybe the parents won't have a big problem. However, its likely they are concerned about the other traditions, which did make the OP uncomfortable once, that will conflict with their strict religious teachings.

OP said her dh's family are also Jewish, but liberal so I was just wondering what actual Christmas traditions they'll be participating in.

Am I the only one who thinks there is a double standard going on here and this situation would be perceived entirely differently if a devout Christian were acting in similar manner? The OPs parents are being spectacularly unreasonable, and I say this as someone who comes from Jewish ancestry myself, and who has a deep apprecation for Judaism. (Not so much for orthodox traditions, granted.)

They are not celebrating Christmas. They are having a big Chanukah celebration on whichever number day happens to fall on Christmas and there will be a tree in the corner. (I have always personally found it very strange when Jews have Xmas trees, but to each their own.) I know there are some complicated political issues at work here potentially, but I wonder if her mother would have cared if it hadn't been pointed out that the party was on Christmas Day? As opposed to just Sunday? I can't figure out what the mother's exact problem is - if it's not the tree, then what?

I think that you are probably being a bit unreasonable to be honest. At the end of the day your parents are Haredi and Christmas celebrates the birth of jesus regardless of whether people generally recognise that nowadays. For them, I suspect that it is fundamentally wrong to be taking part in any kind of celebration relating to Xmas however it is dressed up and I really don't see how you can think that they would be a part of it.

Why dont you book them into a Kosher restaurant, they are all open, whilst you have lunch and then do Chanukah candles etc in the early evening.

I think that they sound pretty tolerant about the tree. We are not particularly religious and have Xmas lunch, crackers etc but father Christmas doesn't come to our house and we dont have a tree, it is a step too far even for my lapsed beliefs so I do kind of get where they are coming from.

Bloody Hell.. I would be much more intolerant than most of you, ladies. If I organize a BBQ at my house, and one of the guests said: "You know, I would like to go to the BBQ, but actually take the food with me and eat it at the bedroom" I'd suggest them to not come to the BBQ.

A member on ANY religion can be present in a celebration of another religion festivities without it "tainting" their own beliefs and offending their God. Are your parents unsure of their beliefs? They seem afraid that a Christmas tree will stab their God in the eye and suddenly they'll become impure... what a load of bollocks!

Sorry, if they were my parents I'd suggest them to either come and enjoy the party, or stay home.

I don't think they are deliberately being U - they are being honest that it makes them feel uncomfortable and upset and they don't like it. I understand because I feel the same - we will be doing something similar (well, more presents and turkey etc etc) as my dh is non-Jewish and that is his tradition whilst i am Jewish - it still, after over a decade, makes me feel uncomfortable however hard I try, and my Xmas spirit is always half-hearted.

They can't help the way they feel - they're not banning you from doing it.

There seems to be a slight mix up - while I naturally drifted awy form being haredi when I was in the UK by myself and in uni. I didn't lose my faith - over the year I have become more Liberal jewish (in view of some things) but equally on something I would still be classed as orthodox (traditions and some things)

When I say my DH and family are not very religious liberal jews - maybe that is by my standards. They are a high holy days, purim etc synagogue go-ers, non pork eating, still do a bit of praying and reading (by me that is not very religious - but guess to a lot it probably isn't)

Yes his family did slightly change what they do on 25th when we got together - because we disagree. I find having a tree up hard (and if it was just up to me we wouldn't but it is DHs family traditions that he wishes to pass on to DCs, I have them as well - I'm know DH finds them a bit odd and if it was him would have chosen not to do them) but then together we reached a compromise (as we did about Koshrut and going to synagogue) and we certainly don't do father christmas. I don't know know exactly why DHs family have always had a tree and things but I accept that they do. It isnt 'christmas' but that is how DH family have always decribed it as. and they aren't christmas presents - just gelt and another present.

Same as they accept some things I do that are still orthodox.