to think my parents ABU about Chanukah?

[boatdeliah]

My parents are coming over for Chanukah (flying out in a few days) they live in Israel and inbetween 2 Dcs and another on the way we don't get to fly out and see them and my Mum hates flying.

However DH was raised in a not very religious liberal jewish family and his family has always done a big thing on Christmas day (if it falls during Chanukah) so lots of people around, an extra present on top of normal Chanukah and will have a tree.

I am Israeli and was raised in a Haredi jewish community (came to the UK at 16 with family, eventually they went back to Israel and I stayed here - somehow - and moved away from the ulta-orthodox I was brought up in)

My family obviously had concerns about DH but he is Jewish so in the end....it is fine.

Anyway talking to my mum tonight she was asking about if DHs family would be coming around at anytime (1 sibling lives close the parents and other siblings don't)
I told her about 25th and his families traditions - which me and DH are choosing to echo with our DCs. I have told her before

She hit the roof.

And after much frantic loud words with my Mum (with DC1 giving me funny looks because of the very loud hebrew)

Her and My Dad don't want to be a part of the 'Christmas' celebrations.
Explained that it isn't 'Christmas' but everyone has it off, DHs family have always had a tree - and it just sits in the corner of our living room. And they dont have to do the extra present thing.

But no - they will not be a part of it at all.

Well what am I meant to do? I asked what they would do - just sit in the other room praying?

They are insiting that they will not be a part of the 'Christmas' celebrations on 25th will do the 'normal' bit then retreat to their room for the rest of it and take their food up their (dont get me started on how difficult it is tying to do full kashrut for us all for a week - I had forgotten what it was like)

I didn't know what to say - I said DC2 was crying and had to go (they weren't)

DH thinks we should say that if they are here then they have to accept that we do it our way (well apart from synagogue - going on a treck to get to Hareldi/orthodox one) and if they dont want to be involved then that is fine - but they cant be involved in any of it (on that day) and certainly no giving them food in their room

I think that is a bit harsh - but well they are at someone elses for the time and that is the way we do.

AIBU to tell them no - not doing anything special for them ?

Funny - as an atheist I see absolutely nothing religious about a tree. It's about having a part of the natural world in my home during winter - exactly the same as having flowers in a vase, just on a bigger scale.
I'm with the person who said they might not realise that it's a national holiday on such a scale and that people take advantage of it to see each other.
Actually I should just shut up - it's shocked me how little I know about the Jewish religion. I struggle to understand how they can be so upset - but they obviously are. Maybe apologise - everyone's parents are a bit awkward at Xmas. They could get run over by a bus before they get on a plane and you don't want to remember this argument.

Its a hard one, I say this as a modern orthodox jew who is a little about jewish people having Christmas trees (although am happy to go to work and colleagues Christmas parties)... I think best solution would be to get them invited out somewhere for the day as they are going to feel uncomfortable with a Christmas party.

They are Israeli charedi jews, what do you expect and I think YAB a little U to expect them to accept this - after all you yourself said it was uncomfortable when you first met.

I suppose it is because if I am honest I am still uncomfortable about tree, decorations and things but me and DH have an agreement - he gets them and I get other things.
my mum esp knows all that - i suppose I just expected them to be a bit more....something.

I have to say, this argument that a Christmas tree isn't a symbol of Christianity sounds to me like those who say that the swastika is an ancient Hindu symbol rather than a Nazi one, or that using 'gay' as an insult has a modern meaning that has nothing to do with homophobia. It's a bit of sophistry, isn't it?

OP, I just think you have managed to achieve some kind of accommodation between you, your dp and your parents over your religious differences. Now they have come to stay for the Christmas period and that precarious balance has been blown. All I can advise if that you find some way of allowing everybody to save face - like getting them out of the house on Christmas Day - and FGS never, ever invite them to stay in December ever again. Good luck

You might have an agreement with your DH re: tree, but your parents never agreed to anything. You could try and explain the concessions your DH makes you in return for the tree, but in this situation i still think best to get them invited out for the day.

The tree is probably one of the few Christmas traditions that has NOTHING to do with religion at all. No tree mentioned in the Bible. No tree mentioned at mass. It is just a tree, with colorful, sparkly decorations. You can just use baubles and tinsel, so there will also be no religious decorations on it.

What exactly is so wrong about the Xmas tree? Why should it make people uncomfortable?

Tell them you are cellebrating winter solstice. The tree represents pagan sacrifices. Or you are celebrating Dies Natalis Solis.

Seriously, your children have a dual herritage, you are combining both to give them the best of both upbringings and they would like to see all their grandparents together as it doesn't happen often. Tell your mother this.

You cannot get away from the fact that the 25th and 26th are bank holidays in the UK and it is an ideal time for people to meet up. When else do we get two bank holidays in a row? Modern Christmas is a very British thing, most families of all faiths and none do something. People are shocked that I don't celebrate it.

Many of the 'traditions' only arived in Victorian times - trees, cards and possibly crackers.

It is educationally a good idea to expose your children to many other cultures. I have given my brother's children red envelopes containing money for Chinese new year, the nearest any of us has to come to being chinese is ordering a take away. If I gave your children the same envelopes and explained this is what happens in China would you be upset? Would your parents be upset?

Like it or not, you live in a country where there are bank holidays for major Christian festivals (BTW do you realise Christmas is not the major Christian festival, it's Easter? Do your parents know that?) the only bank holidays in winter are Christmas and New year - would they prefer you got together for New Year's day - it's the new Christian year.

Just because some Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25th does not mean you are. What if you all got together on Jan 7th - that's Christmas day in Russia and Greece and a few other countries.

Here's a list of feast / saints days cellebrated by some Christians in Dec / Jan - ask your parents if they want to avoid all of them.

21 December: Saint Peter Canisius
23 December: Saint John of Kanty
25 December: Nativity of the Lord

26 December: Saint Stephen, the first martyr

27 December: Saint John the Apostle and evangelist

28 December: Holy Innocents, martyrs
29 December: Saint Thomas Becket, bishop and martyr
31 December: Saint Sylvester I, pope
1 January: Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God
2 January: Saints Basil the Great and Gregory Nazianzen
3 January: The Most Holy Name of Jesus: Saint Munchin
6 January: Epiphany
7 January: Saint Raymond of Peñafort
12 January: Saint Aelred of Rievaulx
13 January: Saint Hilary of Poitiers, Saint Wulstan, Saint Kentigern

I hope that gives you enought to show your mum that it doesn't really matter. What is important is that your children get to spend time with their grandparents.

If they do take to their room send one of your dc in to ask them to come play with him/her - can any grandparent resist a child's request?

YABU

I think your DH and his family should compromise and get rid of the tree for this year.

Your parents obviously feel very strongly about this. It doesn't sound like your DH and his family have as strong beliefs about the tree as your parents do. Since they are flying all the way over, once in 4 years, making a compromise about the tree for this year seems like the best option to keep everyone happy.

'I suppose it is because if I am honest I am still uncomfortable about tree, decorations and things but me and DH have an agreement - he gets them and I get other things.
my mum esp knows all that - i suppose I just expected them to be a bit more....something.'

Is the tree more important to your DH than upsetting your parents?
I think he is being pretty selfish.

Sashh

Haredi jews are the ultra orthodox Jews who wear black hats, have side curls and often black coats. The women cover their hair with wigs, only wear skirts. They don't generally have TV, their children generally mix exclusively with other ultra orthodox children and to a large extent they are quite segregated from modern society. They are not going to give a monkeys about winter solstice or any other holiday in the secular calendar. Infact, the Haredi school in our town is open as normal on Xmas day.

My guess is that if the OP hadnt got a tree and didn't mention Christmas but that it was bank holiday then her parents would have been fine spending the day with the grandchildren and having a family lunch. The tree on christmas has probably reinforced to them how far their daughter has moved away frm their roots and they see Christmas, as I do, as the day of Jesus birth and that they are paying homage to that. Regardless of whether most people in the country agree that is most likely where they are coming from and from a Haredi point of view that is never going to change.

Many Haredi Jews pay minimal attention to anything secular, their lives revolve around Jewish law and practice and anything else is incidental. The traditions of the country do not feature in their radar because it is not part of their life.

The OP's best bet is to make arrangements for her parents on Christmas day and to remember to invite them for rosh hashanah next time.

Az ma kara?

I am now going to show my ignorance, is in Hanukkah or Chanukah? because Ive just wished my friend happy Hanukkah on facebook.

My jewish friends dont celebrate Christmas in any shape or form. Thats just the way it is. I have Hindu and muslim friends that do it for their children so that they dont feel left out Everyone is different but, I imagine if you are visiting from abroad you have to make some effort to fit in with your hosts routine. I dont think eating in the bedroom is the answer.

Happy holidays everyone, anyway!!

Eating in the bedroom is NOT the answer!! sorry

katkitya - The spelling in english isn't really relevant as its a hebrew word.

The hebrew letters are Chet, Nun, Caf, Hey.

The Chet is sounded like the "ch" in loch so its a gutteral sound, hence sometimes written "Ch" or sometimes "H" - either way its not a soft "ch" like chain.

English people find the "ch" sound hard to pronounce although most Scots can manage it as they are used to saying "Loch" with a gutteral "Ch"

So Cha Nu Kah with with gutteral "Ch".

Sorry, but I think you are being completely unreasonable. For charedim to agree to be in a Jewish house with a Christmas tree seems like a massive compromise to me -- your parents must love you very much to agree to hang around, albeit in their room, essentially turning a blind eye to something so completely objectionable from their perspective. I can't really understand how someone who grew up in a charedi home can't understand this.... All the talk about this being 'cultural' not religious will make no sense whatsoever to them and is completely irrelevant.

And yes I agree with Mizza76, for Israeli haredim just too big a compromise.

I posted earlier on, whilst I am very happy to "celebrate" Christmas with my friends who are not jewish, eg work christmas party, visiting my boss for his pre-christmas party I am a bit of jews having a tree (unless the DP isn't jewish, which isn't the case here).....

I am not haredi and I would be uncomfortable with the situation you describe (a Christmas party at a jewish friends house), so even more so for them, esp as they have flown in so far to see you and its their daughter and grandchildren.

I think they are BU but I'm not surprised.

My dh is Israeli and completely secular. This is the first Christmas we're having in England and he's completely refused to do anything for it - no tree, no decorations, nothing. We're going to (Jewish) friends for lunch tomorrow and he's relented as far as Christmas crackers as I think he's intrigued by the idea of grown adults sitting around with paper hats on and reading corny jokes but that's it. And the man's an atheist so it's definitely cultural as well as religious.

I think it's a knee jerk reaction to Christmas.There's certainly nothing in the halacha that you can't sit in a room with other people celebrating their own traditions in their own way. Maybe you should consult with a haredi rabbi? Would that help?

I'm with the parents, I'm afraid. As a reasonably orthodox Jew I am very uncomfortable with Jewish people celebrating in any shape or form: whether it is a Christmas tree or taking the children to see Santa Claus. I know they have nothing to do with the holy day theoretically, but practically (as said so more eloquently up thread) they are in reality about the holiday.

Anyway, to the point: I'm afraid in my opinion your husband should (hopefully has given) give way on his custom to the beliefs of his in-laws. It's a good lesson to your children about respect for other's beliefs (and a belief out-ranks a custom in this instance).

To the other person up thread worried about misspelling chanukah/hanukka/hanuca or whatever: I'm sure your Jewish friends a) couldn't care less about the spelling (as it's a transliteration) and b) are delighted and touched that you took the trouble to send a message.

On a lighter note, a nice chanukah song (click on a single candle at a time for full enjoyment): www.lionetwork.net/images/Hanuka-LH.swf

Xmas trees and Father Christmas have nothing to do with Christianity. They are cultural traditions for people in this country. I am an athiest and still have a "traditional" Christmas because it is part of my culture.

I don't get the big deal, reshetima. We enjoy Christmas but recognise it as belonging to other peoples' culture, and religion but also the dominant one of the country we live in. I take the kids to diwali, eid and Chinese new year celebrations as well. It just enriches us and in no way replaces our own religion and culture in our lives.

Those who don't get reshitima's views don't understand the perspective of an haredi jew. There is a specific prohibition in the jewish faith again celebrating festivals and their customs from other faiths. So whilst guy fawkes day is fine as it was about a thwarted attempt to blow up the houses of parliament and hence its nationalistic in nature, halloween is not acceptable as it has pagan roots and christmas obviously has the link the Christianity. Celebrating christmas in any shape or form is against their religion. This would probably extend to eating mince pies or turkey on christmas.

Indeed foreeverondiet. Chukat hagoyim (imitating rites of non-Jews) is prohibited in Leviticus 18:3 and etc.

It is a deep-set taboo that you cannot simply overcome by saying 'oh it's pagan' or 'it's a cultural thing'.

The case is even more problematic for people who have a family history in Eastern Europe, because of the association of Christmas (and Easter) with pogroms www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0016_0_15895.html.

And which pasuk forbids you from allowing others to do as you wish? It is the op's transgression if at all, not theirs. I'm familiar somewhat with the Israeli haredi community having lived many years in Jerusalem and I personally believe that intolerance is the order of the day rather than an adherence to halacha.

Others to do as they wish, obviously

I wonder how it went? Tbh sounds like having the parents in another room for the day might be a nice way to spend the day!