To think that being Tory doesn't make you thick?

[RainbowSheep]

Ok, my family are all very liberal (I mean my parents, aunts & uncles, who incidently have all had lots of money & opportunities throughout their lives). Their parents (who were poor working class) were more conservative as are me and my brother, who are both pretty poor. We recently had a family get together where I was told by my uncle (university lecturer) that Tories were unitelligent and I was beginning to sound like an idiot for having conservative views... I don't think I am particularly right wing.

Well Londonone, they could leave them as they are. Don't try to argue that they are creating jobs either, because they aren't, they are just shifting jobs. Creating 10 jobs when you have made 10 redundancies is simply PR. (obviously I am aware that there are more than 10 jobs at stake.)

Yes they could. I am not fussed either way about bin collections but think they should be provided centrally as a municipal service that benefits everyone from a public health point of view

Fascists are not left wing. It really is that simple.

London, that wasn't the point that pointy was making, she was talking about and increased spend on increasing bin collections.

Dh and I had a good laugh at the idea Nazis were socialists. I daren't tell him the BNP are apparently left wing - I fear he may strain something laughing.

So we'll ignore eminent historians and academics and, well facts, and change things to fit. Is that the idea SWC, Ed?

Oh my, I'm still laughing!

Kate, there's a point where extreme political views sort of 'meet round the back' though, isn't there?

Yes and I am not sure why increased spending on rubbish collections is either particularly rightwing or leftwing!

Well, because it is an example of the Tory party having their priorities wrong.

NO. Keeping Council Tax down is a Good Priority that directly benefits people on a tight budget, that's why they are doing it.

wow - you are rude smallwhitecat, why don't you try to argue your pov more sensibly?

There are people who talk about 'left wing fascism' I've seen it before on here too. But that kind of behaviour is not what traditional progressive socialism is supposed to be about and most people with liberal ideals would not fit that model - perhaps tory voters prefer to remove themselves as far from the BNP as possible and see this as a way to do so - to argue that left politics usually ends in evil.

Rather a disingenuos way to suggest that those with liberal ideals are actually bad and wrong.

There's definitely a lot of common ground in the methods extremists use to keep and enforce power but that's not about ideology. In fact, those methods only become necessary when the ideology falls short; if the ideology was meeting people's needs there would be no need to exercise extreme methods to enforce the ideology because the vast majority of people (sufficient to maintain political stability) would comply.

Where was council tax mentioned?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! You crack me up SWC. I realise now you are being ironic! I apologise. I thought you were being stupid.

I did snort loudly at that SWC!

Would that be in areas of extremely high intelligence?

fontsnob - So now the tory party are wrong to increase public spending on services that benefit everyone? So you would like less money spent on public services that benefit everyone?

They are wrong to increase spending money on something that doesn't need the money spending on it. I'm not arguing for less, i'm arguing it should stay the same and the money should be used elsewhere.

FS- You talked about bin collections and the Tories (aside - actually coalition but we'll move on from that) providing increased funds for bin collections as being an example of A Bad Thing.

Bin collection is funded by Council Tax and organised by the local council, and councils are saying they can't afford to collect bins as often as they have done in the past what with recylcing, increase on pressure on council budgets, etc, etc. So rather than CT going up, central govt is providing funds so that people who would most feel CT rises won't have them directly.

If you look up a definition of left wing politics it will talk about people who want to make changes in the interests of public welfare.

Left wing means liberal, an example of how liberalism is defined;

'a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.'

Tolerant, progressive, free from bigotry - these things are as far from Hitler and the BNP as you could get.

Why are you trying to obscure the issue?

londonone

Silly! You are forgetting the Leftie mantras.

All Labour good, all Tories bad.

All parties are equal but Labour are more equal than others.

'Left wing means liberal, an example of how liberalism is defined;'

No, no, noooooooo.

Left wing does not mean liberal. It means left wing! The centre right is the natural home of the liberal (low regulation).

Actually Harry, you too are making assumptions, i'm VERY willing to hear two sides of an argument and have my mind changed, I think Labour made some shit descisions, I think the Tories are making far worse ones with far reaching consequences for vunerable people.

londonone the point I was trying to make was that we are cutting services for vulnerable people (day centres for the elderly and the disabled, benefits for people in genuine need) and at the same time there is apparently money to go from fortnightly to weekly bin collections. To my mind that smacks of getting priorities wrong, most definitely. We have fortnightly bin collections, we have 3 wheelie bins (green waste, landfill waste, recyclables) and you know what? It actually isn't that onerous to manage. When it gets hot, you slosh the bins out with boiling water and disinfectant every so often - no smell problems, no maggots.

I really don't want to see weekly collections back, I'd much rather that money was spent on people who need it. I don't see the benefit of this public service, not when it comes at the expense of the most vulnerable in our society. I don't actually care that I don't benefit from the above mentioned day centres, I'm happy to pay for them and I wonder, I really wonder about people who aren't.