To think that being Tory doesn't make you thick?

[RainbowSheep]

Ok, my family are all very liberal (I mean my parents, aunts & uncles, who incidently have all had lots of money & opportunities throughout their lives). Their parents (who were poor working class) were more conservative as are me and my brother, who are both pretty poor. We recently had a family get together where I was told by my uncle (university lecturer) that Tories were unitelligent and I was beginning to sound like an idiot for having conservative views... I don't think I am particularly right wing.

I don't even know what to say to that Ed. I really don't. Bnp have fascist policies. Like Hitler or Franco (as you seem keen on dictators to illustrate your point). Both extreme right wing.

Can you not see that?

I'm not sure equating modern politics to extremist dictators is particularly helpful or relevant. We don't live in a dictatorship even if we do have an unelected government passing laws including some that are contrary to their own manifestos.

The whole point of surestart, surely is that it should provide mostly for socially disadvantaged families who cannot afford outings or swimming lessons or anything else or even £2 for play group. And that on that basis their children get a chance to learn and socialise and they will be on a more level playing field when they start school.

Well others should probably think about the fact that not everyone lives close to their family. That not everyone with PND is able to confide in their friends to ask for support. Perhaps not everyine has friends, perhaps people are in shitty relationships and need the support given by the trained people who ran our surestart. That the health visitors sent me to the surestart because the NHS doesn't provide enough support without these outside agencies. Perhaps others should consider that sure start centers aren't just a place for new mums to go and meet up and perhaps others should actually find out the kinds of services that sure start centers provide.

Londonone early intervention of health and social care means less cost in the longer term.

Ie, spend £1000 per year on breastfeeding support to save thousands of pounds later (can link to studies if required but am on phone at the moment).

As I said, it wasn't just middle class mums that were there and who said that I am middle class? You actually haven't got a clue about my financial situation so how about you try to be a little less judgmental.

So, if one or two surestart centers are in the wrong area, does that mean that all the funding should be pulled for all centers?

Should the lower classes, ONLY mix with others of the same ilk?

I don't care what class you are from. Of course sure start centres are good places so are childrens swimming classes, baby gym, singing for toddlers and a million and one other things. Doesn't mean that they should be funded by the state. My experience of working with the type of families that sure start was meant to be targetted at, is that a 10 week parenting course isn't going to have the slightest impact and that the intervention needs to come pre conception. The small minority of families where early intervention will save the state money in the long run, tend to need much higher levels of support and intervention than parenting courses and family support workers can offer. They are the families that will cost millions in the long run, but they are few in number and should get a high level of targetted support. The more general type of schemes are cheaper to run though and as many people can access them are often popular. Doesn't mean they do a great deal of good for society,though individuals may think they are nice.

I don't really think that you can equate the work that surestart centers do with a swimming lesson or music class.

I quote, IMO If you and the other nice middle class mums feel it is something of great value then you could choose to support said charities.

My comment on my own class was in response to that, don't make assumptions.

Like I said I neither know nor care what class you are. You may not equate the two things but IMO they are all part of a continuum and you and I simply disagree on how far along the continuum government funding should stretch.

Equate which things?

Surestart is a good example of something that gets emotive but the problem is not 'Is this a good idea?', but 'Can we prioritise this given limited resources?'

Not all good, worthy ideas can get state funding. They can't because there is no end to good worthy ideas and there is an end to state funding.

equate surestart support and other opportunities that may be available to childre like swimming lessons etc

Exactly right lemon difficult

smallwhitecat - spot on

Yes the re-writing of history IS annoying SWC. Especially when it becomes total bollox.

I once heard someone on radio 4 try to argue that the Nazis were socialists and everyone roared with laughter.

I don't think it's about the racism (even though that is revolting anyway) - BNP policies are fascist in other areas of their manifesto.

*BIWI - Why shouldn't people be grateful that we have a system that means many many people get far more out of the system than they contribute because a few people contribute a huge amount.

There are people who should be supported no matter what and who shouldn't be grateful i.e the sick, disabled and carers. Everyone else should be bloody grateful for what they get. We should be grateful that if we choose to have kids they will receive a free education, but it's not really free is it because it is being paid for by taxation which some people contribute a lot more of than others,*

Brilliantly put.
Our welfare state is the best in the world but it is borne on the backs of a very small minority. Drive them out, batter them with even more punitive taxes and the only losers will be the very people most vulnerable and in most need of it.

For these reasons we need to protect the welfare state from abuse and ensure it is utilised by need not greed.

I don't think that surestart simply provide those services though, ime they have provided very good support in terms of breast feeding, first aid and health, mental health services, childcare, integrating people into the community, support for young parents. Yes, there are some that provide other services that aren't essential, and in some places I agree that they have been mis-targeted. However, why cut the entire service? Why get rid of the essential services along with the non-essential?

Harry, do you not see that so many of the policies being brought in are in fact penalising the very people who are in most need of it? This is the issue that so many of us have with the current Tory govt.

Well put, FontSnob. It also sends out completely the wrong message when the likes of Eric Pickles sets aside a fund of £250 million (which is of course a drop in the bucket, but still) for weekly bin collections. Set against everything that is being cut, what does that say about Tory priorities?

Should they perhaps privatise bin collections then so only those that can afford could have their waste removed?

What it says to people is: we know your council tax is high, we don't want it to go higher so we are providing central funding for it.

Poor people pay council tax too y'know.