To expect schools to have big and ugly old skool teachers who can give a b****king

[JustArgh]

Parents evening last week, call home today DS (year 9) in trouble yet again, another meeting at school to "resolve" things.

Am I being unreasonable to expect teachers to sort this out at school themselves by yelling and generally terrifying pupils into submission - or is this frowned upon nowadays?

What's happened to the ex-Army psycho barrelling across the playground to break things up and sort things out with the school halfwits like my DS.

Teachers - why do you have to be so "nice" ?!

I don't have the energy to shout at all the students that behave badly. I save my energy for shouting at my own kids when I get home .

What am I missing?

Yes, agree that teachers have had to add to their tool-boxes as schools have become more inclusive. Really need to go now but will catch up with Boffin's input tomorrow.

Nice way to talk about your child, JustArgh

Do you spend your days haranguing him to keep him under control, too?

Agree, OP. My DS (now 17) was a pain in the neck at school in Y7 and 8. Came to a head when I called for a meeting with the Head of Year. She postponed the meeting and when we went later she had got a report for DS from all of his teachers. The strict teachers gave him a good report, the not so strict were not so complimentary. She (HoY) then shocked him by telling him that the reason he was staying in lower sets was for his behaviour, not ability. I can say that that was a real shock to him (and us, as we had not been made aware that his behaviour had been so very bad). He was also put on report for every lesson for a fortnight.

That meeting was a real wake-up call for him. I won't say he became an angel overnight, but he was not in trouble at all in Y9 and only on the odd occasion in the subsequent years.

We were very pleased with the treatment by the school, but what was evident from the meeting was that DS could behave if he wanted to, it depended completely on the strength of the teacher's character.

I have spoken tonight to DS about this (he's now in 6th form and doing very well). He said that it was completely his own decision to misbehave and nothing we did at home changed that. It was then his decision to behave. We did always back the school with whatever sanctions they imposed. We added sanctions at home if they were warranted.

Strict teachers don't have to be shouty; they do have to be prepared for each lesson and have back-up plans in case pupils finish their work early and they must ALWAYS follow-through on any sanctions. They must not want to be the pupils' friend. They must keep their distance.

Right

BTW please don't out me on here if you know who I am, otherwise I can never discuss my pelvic floor online again.

There have been some big changes over the last 30-50 years that contribute to all this, and it makes life challenging for teachers, as many have pointed out.

1. Kids stay in school longer. Most used to be in the workplace from the age of about 14-15 or so, and the ones left in school came from pro-school homes. Now we have a situation where everyone is in school until at least 16, soon to be 18, and schools are struggling to cope with with young adults in a system that was effectively designed for elementary education in Victorian times. Older boys find it particularly tough and can opt out completely sometimes (for more on this, see Paul Willis's study "Learning to Labour - How Working Class Boys Get Working Class Jobs"). Kids of 13-15 are considered especially tough to teach, by the way.

1. Beating children has (fortunately) been banned since the early 1980s. This was relied upon quite heavily in seeking to control restless boys (and occasionally girls) in schools.

1. Like in any job or profession, there are different motivations for teachers - some relate very closely to the children, some are keen to get the detail of the job right, some have an eye for the main chance and want promotion at all costs, and some are in it for the holidays, for example. Teachers move through these phases at different stages in their professional and personal lives, and can be in two of them at the same time. This all impacts on how they discipline children in the classroom - some teachers will use a counselling type approach, some will make sure they adhere to the bureaucracy slavishly, some will read widely about how best to handle things and engage in classroom-based research, and some will shrug it all off and go home. However teachers are steered towards particular approaches by their head teacher, which brings us to ...

1. Leadership. This can be difficult. For many years schools have found it pretty difficult to fill headship posts, which makes standards variable. In the absence of a clear, structured discipline policy, with necessary consequences, and backed up by Senior Management, kids kick off.

1. Finally, there is the teacher's secret toolkit. There are strategies that can be used to subdue all but the most unruly hoard of kids. There is the teacher 'look', the teacher 'stern voice', the theatrical 'stance' whilst waiting for quiet and if all else fails, a sense of humour perfectly pitched and timed in a way Michael McIntyre could only dream of. Keeping them frenetically busy and thoroughly engaged in class helps too, as does personally making sure every pupil learns something worthwhile every single lesson. However this is a lot to ask and even the best teachers have bad days.

Ultimately all a parent can do is back up the school in 99% of cases and in the remaining 1%, do not let your child sense you are having a quiet word with the school.

I think you mean 'in the remaining 1%, consult MN, be told you are BU and then back up the school'

Indeed. MN is the perfect place for that.

With all due respect, given your son's age and the fact that he is (as you recognise) both NT and privileged in his home life, isn't it primarily his responsibility to ensure he behaves at school and doesn't mess up the learning environment for everybody else?

Don't remember many ex-Army types from my days at school but I do remember that we were regarded as pretty well grown-up at age 14; perhaps that did something to our expectations of ourselves.

My eldest, teaching secondary maths has had parents of Year 11 pupils phone to complain that they have a 1 hour detention after school, this for not doing their homework after having 3 time extensions - not just one child but 3 (phoning, over 10 didn't do it), top set aswell. Who will get the blame when the don't do aswell as they should? The teacher, but surely parents should back up teachers and shouldn't complain if sanctions are put in place so the kids can't get away with it! My kids wouldn't have been more worried about my punishment at home than what the school could come up with!

My DD had a great teacher last yr but this yrs teacher is too nice and she keeps getting into trouble with another girl and when ever I tell her it is not reasonable behaviour she says but "mrs x doesn't mind" and she isnt a telling off sort of teacher!! Last yrs teacher stood for no nonsense!! Last yrs teacher was an older teacher late 40's this yr early 20's . Completely different teacher training degrees!!!

The best and most respected teacher I ever knew NEVER got cross. He was hilarious - the sort of teacher who could have a laugh with the class but keep order- and everyone loved him and never gave him a moment's trouble.

He was pretty much permanently pissed, mind. They sacked him for it in the end. Stupid. He was the best teacher ever, despite smelling of alcohol all the livelong day.

Hmm, its a tricky one. I do think that the best teachers can control behaviour using respect not fear. However, at the same time I also think that every school needs at least one 'scary' teacher where the kids know that if they go to them, they are in for the bollocking of their lives! However, with this climate of kids 'knowing their rights' and the parents rushing in if little Johnny gets told off, these teachers are becoming few and far between.

But if you think yelling at him works so well then can't you just yell at him when he gets in trouble at school and then he will start behaving surely? He's not 2 he should be able to understand delayed consequences. I was never scared of any of my teachers but did fear my parents reactions if I had ever got in to trouble at school.

Banning electronics, pocket money and seeing friends is usually the way to ensure compliance from Year 9 offspring.

I had a Y11 kid who was C/D borderline for maths who I had to keep reminding in lessons to do any work and not stare out of the window. Homework was not forthcoming and he was in danger of not getting a C.

His mum complained that I was picking on him and should just leave him to do no work in lessons. She said this in front of him.

It's one thing not to back up the school with your own sanctions, or even to not care about school, but deliberately undermining the school really pisses me off.

In our staffroom we have discussed how we intend to shout at our pupils and their parents once we are well into our sixties. We plan to be the type of senior citizens who don't give a hoot about pandering to modern thinking. Ah yes, things will certainly be different once the retirement age is increased. We may in fact choose to work into our nineties and beyond, just for the sport of being scary and old skool. Perhaps we'll even give the grandparents a good scowling. One has to make the best of things... I intend to growl at people. Like a lion.

I haven't read all of this but we've got an 'old school' cow of a teacher who seems to delight in throwing her weight around every single day.

She doesn't go psycho, she's just sarcastic, cruel, humiliating and generally gives the impression of not giving a shit about the kids' feelings.

So really, I'm all for the nice teachers tbh