To expect schools to have big and ugly old skool teachers who can give a b****king

[JustArgh]

Parents evening last week, call home today DS (year 9) in trouble yet again, another meeting at school to "resolve" things.

Am I being unreasonable to expect teachers to sort this out at school themselves by yelling and generally terrifying pupils into submission - or is this frowned upon nowadays?

What's happened to the ex-Army psycho barrelling across the playground to break things up and sort things out with the school halfwits like my DS.

Teachers - why do you have to be so "nice" ?!

"Op never mentioned shouts"

OP mentioned yelling and terrifying students into submission.

Tethers has it spot on.

It's all very well to say there should be sanctions, and I'm sure most teachers love those parents who back them up when their children need to be disciplined.

The problem comes with the children whose parents don't back up the teachers, and they are usually the children that have the most to gain from strict sanctions.

There are plenty of parents that will openly disrespect the teachers opinions in front of their children, or who will storm into the school complaining about teachers who make little Johnny miss out on golden time, or bigger Johnny do his third detention in a week.

Teachers are in a no win situation.

OP did actually mention 'yelling and generally terrifying pupils into submission'.

X posts, noble!

I agree catroasting however it is not just up to schools either - the two have to work together.

There are times when you want a lively class and times when you want them to work in silence. I ensure every lesson has a period of silence and there are some lessons where there is silence for most of the lesson. The important thing is that you get silence when you want it.

I do think that there is a real issue of 'mavericks' no longer being able to teach in schools. Teaching is heavily regulated, teacher training very prescriptive, and teachers' autonomy has been removed.

I hope Boffinmum comes along- she has written an excellent book about, amongst other things, the changing role of the teacher and how teachers are more technicians delivering the National Curriculum within a narrow set of parameters (I'm looking at you, OFSTED) than the autonomous professionals they once were.

Hmmmm its a tricky one. ...As a teacher of a practical subject I'm known for being strict with the younger ones then you can relax in the later years when you've 'trained' them to behave how you want them to. I often find them vary chatty as year 7's. Even in a lively practical subject the students generally behave well in a highly structured, organised lesson, with clear sanctions in place. We once had a very eminent behavioral special to do inset his advice was all very friendly and child centred e.g. ' could you choose to stop talking and listen please....thanks ' etc . It can work but sometimes imho balling 'CAN YOU ALL BE QUIET AND LISTEN OR YOU WILL LOSE YOUR BREAK TIME ! Sometimes an authoritarian approach works sometimes the tea and sympathy approach works ! As for prayer they just want to see evidence of every single child making progress in a 20 minute observation !

I think teachers have to find a way to manage behaviour even when parents don't engage, or are as slavetofilofax describes, although it undoubtedly makes it more difficult.

At my last school (a PRU), out of 70 children attending, the biggest turnout we ever had at parents' evening was 12 parents. That's no coincidence; but we had to develop behaviour management strategies which didn't rely on parental involvement to be effective.

Ofsted not prayer ffs

I don't know what kind of school you teach in tethers but I teach in a school full of characters and none of us really feel like we can't be ourselves. I don't feel heavily regulated as if I have to teach in a prescriptive way. I am sure there are schools like that, perhaps national challenge schools where you are constantly being observed. I also teach a subject without a national curriculum so have much more freedom than other teachers.

I once gave a kid a telling off for not shutting the hell up in my lesson. I didn't shout and I wasn't particularly harsh. I got the parents barrelling up to the school complaining that I had made their kid cry and that he was an angel and never messed about and what was my problem?!

I also had parents complain because I told a kid that he would have done better on a test if he had caught up with the work he missed when he was ill before the test.

Parents also complained because their kid was sanctioned on a school trip for not getting out of bed in time for breakfast. 'Must have been ill'.

I dread to think what would happen if I went beserk at a kid for not knowing their times tables.

I feel the same twinkly troll and I teach English. I feel that there is quite a lot of autonomy and scope for different personalities and teaching styles.

"but we had to develop behaviour management strategies which didn't rely on parental involvement to be effective."

Would be interested in some top tips :)

It's not about what kind of school I teach in, twinklytroll- we are awash with 'characters'

However, would the characters in our schools make it through teacher training today? The ones I am thinking of would not.

Also, we are so used to being heavily regulated, I think we stop noticing it. I'm not talking about constant observation, but NC and standards and behaviour policies etc. All of these things come with huge positives, and the pay off is worth it IMO- I would rather lose a few maverick teachers than damage children; but I think the issue is there nonetheless.

I have the odd complaint but it does not make me feel that I cannot teach in the way I wish. I will often reflect on the situation and think if I could have handled it better but that would be it.

The ability to brush off parental complaints relies heavily on a supportive HOD, I find.

That was the freedom of teaching outside mainstream, noble- each child had their own behaviour plan with behavioural strategies personal to them.

Yes I would imagine so noble and supportive senior management.

That's interesting for me to read amicissima, I had a simelar sounding maths teacher. We had specific tables lessons in yr6, and I regularly got shouted at by the teacher for not knowing them. But I was just so crap at remembering numbers, I still am (as in I honestly can't even remember how much a pair of shoes I like costs!) and I used to hate Fridays with a passion because I knew I would get shouted at that afternoon. It made every other lesson become time to worry instead of learn.

And then I went to secondary school and for most of it had a very lovely but completely inneffectual maths teacher, who allowed me to do no work at all as long as I was quiet and didn't disturb the lesson.

I think I have grown into a maverick! Some of that is confidence and I love what I do so I want to do it my way.

But yes perhaps it is an issue with younger teachers, I do think you have a different type of person who generally goes into teaching now and perhaps they are more compliant.

I take your point, Tethers but still believe teachers can be charismatic and innovative despite the NC and numerous guidelines. Many teachers have a very good bullshit detector and can play the game in terms of petty bureaucracy when they need to (e.g. When OFSTED come in). They can also forge good relationships with their students using various strategies and manage behaviour well. I still maintain that shouting and screaming is not an effective strategy and really can't think of any examples where students have responded well to being shouted at by colleagues. I'm interested in the book you speak of all the same.

I agree with Amicissima-I don't think one or two 'scary' teachers do any harm at all. At my high school the deputy head was much more feared than the head teacher, he reduced some of the 'hardened' naughty children to tears at times. He also taught me for chemistry and being a quiet, studious type I was petrified! He would go around the class randomly asking questions so no one dared to zone out, and everyone participated in the lessons. I always sat and learnt whatever he had set us, and without disruption in the classroom we all learnt a heck of a lot more. Once I did get a question wrong, and he told me to stay behind after class, where he preceded to calmly go through, and explain the topic in question. More teachers like this are needed, not just the 'nice' ones that seem to populate our schools now.

I did state "shouting and terrifying" as a behaviour strategy. Thank you for all the comments - I can see I am BU.

But it does pain me when teachers are relieved when parents support them - as someone posted. I have supported every sanction, taken teachers side not my sons, attend parents evening - and yet - misbehaviour continues, so is this really an effective approach?

I wish teachers had / felt they had the freedom to take charge in the way they see fit to deal with a situation, and which they probably would do with their own kids at home. There are doubtless some unhappy young people who do need patience, second and third chances and so on, but others from more fortunate homes (that I hope I provide my son with) are taking the mickey and need telling off. Likewise it's okay to express disagreement with the parents who disagree with you!

I dunno - but isn't it your classroom, your rules? Rise up nice teachers, throw off your reasonableness!

MixedClass, I completely agree with you WRT shouting and screaming; not a technique I ever use, as it makes me look like a twat is largely ineffective.

The 'mavericks' I am thinking of perhaps shout and scream, but not exclusively. I recommend the book, it's very interesting. I will try and find Boffinmum so she can tell you all about it

It's also worth bearing in mind that a couple of generations ago, children with behavioural problems were often in special schools, so the 'good' behaviour in our own schooling remembered by those of my generation and older may not have been as a result of shouty teachers at all, but rather the absence of serious behavioural problems in the students allowed the shouty teachers to keep shouting without having to develop another strategy IYSWIM.