To wonder how the HELL some people get into university?

[SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer]

I'm currently doing a degree as a mature student alongside work, and am just amazed at the stupidity lack of knowledge some of my fellow students have. For instance, nearly all of them - on a fecking ENGLISH LANGUAGE degree course - mix up "your" and you're", "there" and "their", and use the spelling "definately".

I overheard a conversation today that involved several students talking about how they didn't know their times tables above 5 or 6.

AIBU to seriously wonder if it's even worth doing a degree if this is the standard they're allowing in at the moment?

If it was so rare, LeQueen, they must have forgotten an awful lot between then and now to judge by the abilities of that generation I've seen in evidence!

LeQueen Completely agree.My Eng Lit degree had the Oxford History of Britain as required reading, and we'd be set an exam on our knowledge of the historical period we were studying before term started. Without some sense of historical context a significant chunk of the works we studied (particularly the older ones) would have been pretty impenetrable.

I think it would have been rare to not know your times tables a couple of generations ago because everyone was taught them parrot fashion at school (which I'm not arguing against.)

But I still maintain that people can be very good at Maths without knowing their times tables off by heart.

I am not arguing that general ability and general knowledge has not fallen among undergraduates. It has and that is a problem.

Yes, exactly - if you're taught something a lot, you'll probably learn it.

I think there are differences between the things students back then didn't know and the things they don't know now, and that's important. I do agree general knowledge/ability has fallen - I mean it can't not, with the different proportions of people going to university, as was pointed out earlier in the thread.

There does seem to have been a lot of focus on learning tables at my children's school in years 3-4. Presumably most hang onto that knowledge and it helps at every stage, but still, a literature student might find it useful in everyday life to know what 7x6 is off the top of his her/head but it will be of no use in discussing the arbitrariness of the signifier.

Historical knowledge and general knowledge is, of course, hugely important and useful, and gaps in both can be frustrating.

For example, my parents are both reasonably bright, reasonably interested in 'culture' and both did their degrees in the 70s in Maths/Science, and I am continually stunned by how very, very weak my dad's understanding of how to read a book is. He has very little concept that books are anything except stories imitating reality as closely as possible. OTOH, I've never come across a maths or science student in my generation who didn't realize there was more to it than that.

(Sorry, that was me rambling on further about my previous post ... )

"back in the 70s my dad says that engineering students were still known for being utterly unable to write without a lot of help"

I have seen evidence of that. Like I say, strong occurence of dyslexia in engineering ime. But in general they are hugely intelligent (you can't blag an engineering degree, it's bloody hard) and have a very important and specific skill.

I think you can't LeQueen, you're right, but you could pick it up as you went along. That's not ideal, I agree. Though in a funny way, sometimes it's easier if you learn the history at university instead of assuming you know it from school, because you're more motivated to match it closely to the text.

GetOrf - yes, sorry, I wasn't in the least intending to suggest engineers aren't bright/capable!

LeQ Just so.

I came out of my Eng Lit degree with a much more detailed and comprehensive understanding of British history than I went in (GCSE History, even when I was at school, was pretty bitty and lacking in a sense of overarching narrative) and on balance I'd say that's been as valuable to me since as the literary stuff.

YY, I forget who mentioned Wilfrid Owen, but without the background knowledge of the First World War a lot of his poetry would not have the same effect.

No, I know you werent't LRD . I do think though that science/engineering students are a different kettle of fish than arts students - they both have their strengths and weaknesses. But broadly agree that to be successful in life after study it is infinitely better to have a general level of knowledge in all disciplines.

It's true though that many people from other disciplines have no idea that studying eng lit is not about saying 'that's a good book because it's realistic and I like the characters' and so on.

Anyway, I learned more about medicine and religion and evolutionary science and philosophy and psychology and economics and history from studying English Literature than I ever could have 'read up on in advance'. I think it's a dynamic thing.

It's WilFRED Owen.

As you were

I went to school in the 90's (left in 2000) - went through college, uni and then did a PGCE. It was only on my PGCE that I learnt what a verb/adverb/causal connective etc was. The curriculum that I was taught did not include these. Formal grammar was not a part of our English lessons in school or even up to AS level in college (I took English Language).

Teaching complex and compound sentences is a basic part of our literacy lessons now so hopefully this generation will be a better class of student!

I don't think that people think English Literature is about saying good book, realistic, nice characters but I do think that people in other disciplines think it is a bit of a dark art, and that what goes on is something of a mystery.

I certainly have no idea, and all previous explanations I have received in life have only confused me further.

'Is it that arithmetic is a part of / subsection of maths but not all mathematics is arithmetic? '

Yes, arithmetic means the art of counting and counting is one sphere of mathematics.

If you can't add numbers up, you can't progress in maths. It is the basis of maths and that is why it is taught in maths classes at primary school worldwide. Multiplication is repeated addition and is also a foundation for further progress in mathematics.

If so many people think differently, no wonder employers are complaining about young people's numeracy skills.

I don't think people are arguing that being able to carry out repeated addition is not a basic skill. Being able to carry it out is not the same thing as knowing all the answers off by heart.

Interested in the "what general knowledge is useful" discussion.

Trills: UK opening hours, last trains home and taxi ranks in and around Central London. I am shit hot on that

Taxi ranks? We could have done with some of that last Saturday...