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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder how the HELL some people get into university?

600 replies

SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer · 01/12/2011 18:50

I'm currently doing a degree as a mature student alongside work, and am just amazed at the stupidity lack of knowledge some of my fellow students have. For instance, nearly all of them - on a fecking ENGLISH LANGUAGE degree course - mix up "your" and you're", "there" and "their", and use the spelling "definately".

I overheard a conversation today that involved several students talking about how they didn't know their times tables above 5 or 6. Shock

AIBU to seriously wonder if it's even worth doing a degree if this is the standard they're allowing in at the moment?

OP posts:
Original poster
SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer · 02/12/2011 13:08

"also learning times tables "off by heart" is not the same skill as being very good at working out maths and science problems.

YOU got into university without understanding that so..."

Where have I said that learning times tables off by heart IS the same skill as being very good at working out maths and science problems? Confused I was making the assumption that by not knowing times tables, one does not have basic knowledge of maths, which as has already been argued, IS a prerequisite for higher learning.

OP posts:
Pendeen · 02/12/2011 13:09

Quite agree.

There can be no excuse for a lack of basic mathematical knowledge.

(Even for arts graduates).

MillyR · 02/12/2011 13:10

You really don't need to know the times tables off by heart to have higher maths skills. Some people are just very good at calculating quickly in their heads.

DeckTheHugeWithBoughsOfManatee · 02/12/2011 13:13

But for people who aren't that good at calculating quickly in their heads, knowing your times tables makes mental arithmetic possible rather than something to delegate to a calculator or ignore completely. Surely this is a basic life skill?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 13:13

Sorry, I do disagree with that.

KNowing times tables is nothing to do with maths. It's arithmetic, rote learned. They are different things. I don't know my times tables but it has not prevented me from getting through basic school maths absolutely fine (ok, I admit I have a C at AS, but I have an A* at GCSE and the AS was my sixth subject so I was a bit busy). I wouldn't know the numbers just like that, but it only takes a few seconds to work them out.

IMO the problem is when you can't understand number bonds. Some people genuinely struggle with this and that is a more serious problem - if you really find the concept of 5 times 7 being 35, that is an issue!

claig · 02/12/2011 13:16

'KNowing times tables is nothing to do with maths. It's arithmetic'

But arithmetic is maths

LeQueen · 02/12/2011 13:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MillyR · 02/12/2011 13:17

Yes, Manatee, I agree. I gave a personal example of that a while back. DD isn't good at calculating, so learning her times tables has made a huge difference to her. DS doesn't really need to know them all off by heart. Like LRD, he can work it out in seconds and not lose track of the broader maths question he is trying to solve. DD would lose track of the broader problem if she had to start thinking about the multiplication rather than just knowing it.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 13:17

No, arithmetic is arithmetic. Confused

They're not synonyms.

DeckTheHugeWithBoughsOfManatee · 02/12/2011 13:19

FWIW I found a rote knowledge of multiplication tables a huge asset in A level maths, especially for the pure maths papers. Being able to reduce algebraic fractions to their lowest common denominator without having to fart about with a calculator was a tremendous help - you just look at it and think 'Oh the numerator and denominator both divide by 7' or whatever and it's done. Without that easy, automatic knowledge the whole thing would have been a much more time-consuming trial and error.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 13:19

Thinking about that Milly, I wonder if for some people, the reason learning their tables by rote is so hard is because they know they can work it out easily, and their brains rebel a bit at learning something that seems unnnecessarily cumbersome?

Sciencegeekmum · 02/12/2011 13:21

Mind if I add my bit?

As a science teacher, I find myself correcting other teachers on a regular basis. Powerpoints and resources are produced with spelling and grammar mistakes. The others in my department actually take the piss out of me for this, saying how obsessive I am and how it's like a compulsive disorder. Water off a duck's back, but just goes to show how taking pride in your work is no longer fashionable.

I continue to do it though as I don't want the kids exposed to poor English!

Also, the most common question I get is, "Do we have to spell it right in the exam?" Technically they don't, but I always say they do to show off their intelligence! (Disclaimer: I do take into account dyslexics in my classes and give handy hints on how to remember word spellings. Dyslexia is not a sign of low intelligence; extra tools are needed to cope with form and structure though.)

Original poster
SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer · 02/12/2011 13:22

I think what I'm getting at, LRD, is that if they don't know their times tables, I'm extrapolating that there are other basic maths functions that they cannot perform. I do see what you're saying, though.

OP posts:
notyummy · 02/12/2011 13:22

Arithmetic is NOT maths. Until the early 1990s they were separately examined subjects at O grade in Scotland, and IMHO, should still be. EVERYBODY needs arithmetic, regardless of what you are going to do. Not everyone needs maths.

LeQueen · 02/12/2011 13:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer · 02/12/2011 13:24

And what LeQueen said.

OP posts:
WinterIsComing · 02/12/2011 13:27

Is it that arithmetic is a part of / subsection of maths but not all mathematics is arithmetic?

Might be better expressed as a venn diagram.

I'm not that keen on numbers but adore graphs. This site is very funny

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 13:27

'I think what I'm getting at, LRD, is that if they don't know their times tables, I'm extrapolating that there are other basic maths functions that they cannot perform.'

To me that's the problem, yes. I agree in many cases it will be a valid extrapolation, but not all. You can be brilliant with some islands of inability, or capable with some islands of inability.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 13:29

I don't believe being an undergraduate ever meant that, LeQueen. You'd be stunned at how ignorant some science/maths graduates in my dad's generation are! And that was meant to be the golden age of elite university education.

notyummy · 02/12/2011 13:29

Good point Winter!

MillyR · 02/12/2011 13:30

I don't see how being an undergraduate can ever have meant that, Lequeen. There has never been a blanket requirement for all undergraduates to have As in Maths and English at GCSE.

notyummy · 02/12/2011 13:31

It depends what you mean by ignorant LBD I think it would be highly unusual 40/50 years ago to be unable to punctuate or do times tables- regardless of their discipline.

LeQueen · 02/12/2011 13:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer · 02/12/2011 13:32

WinterIsComing - that's how I see it. Arithmetic is a part of maths like algebra or geometry..... Or a meronym, if you will, with maths being the holonym Xmas Wink. Or is it more hyponymy....

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 13:34

You might be surprised notyummy - back in the 70s my dad says that engineering students were still known for being utterly unable to write without a lot of help.