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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder how the HELL some people get into university?

600 replies

SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer · 01/12/2011 18:50

I'm currently doing a degree as a mature student alongside work, and am just amazed at the stupidity lack of knowledge some of my fellow students have. For instance, nearly all of them - on a fecking ENGLISH LANGUAGE degree course - mix up "your" and you're", "there" and "their", and use the spelling "definately".

I overheard a conversation today that involved several students talking about how they didn't know their times tables above 5 or 6. Shock

AIBU to seriously wonder if it's even worth doing a degree if this is the standard they're allowing in at the moment?

OP posts:
Original poster
SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer · 02/12/2011 12:24

We have been told that in our waste of time Study Skills seminars, LRD. Unless an essay specifically asks for your opinion, we have been told that using the first person is akin to strangling puppies in academic terms.

OP posts:
ElaineReese · 02/12/2011 12:26

That's horseshit, Yule! I know it gets said, but it's nonsense, and very annoying nonsense at that!

You are the person writing the essay, why aren't you allowed to exist in it? Sometimes you need 'I argue' or 'I suggest that', and nothing else will do!

TroublesomeEx · 02/12/2011 12:26

'I' wasn't allowed in my degree.

ElaineReese · 02/12/2011 12:29

We were told quite specifically at my university that it would be ludicrous for the writer of the essay to pretend they weren't, and that usually, ironically, that faux humility results in pompous sounding lines like 'it must be concluded that' or 'we must observe that' and so on.

Don't bang on about 'I thought it was quite interesting and incredibly useful when I read the book' etc etc, but I can't see what on earth is wrong with 'in this essay I shall argue'.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 12:30

I can see that in some subjects it won't be appropriate. But it is appropriate in English Lit, where you are advancing an opinion that is original. If you use another construction, you could be marked down for not providing a reference, I would think.

TroublesomeEx · 02/12/2011 12:32

That's interesting Elaine. Perhaps some universities just put a blanket ban on the first person because it's easier to stop all student from writing "I argue..." than it was to stop the numpties from writing 'I thought it was quite interesting and incredibly useful when I read the book'!

I did seem a bit odd at the time, but I got used to it!

MillyR · 02/12/2011 12:33

I don't think it is pompous, although I can see that it would be if you were writing a purely personal opinion. If you are writing that there is a theory A and a text/ set of facts B, and A were applied to B (which you in writing the essay are the first person to do) then your outcomes should logically follow from that application. There is no reason to mention yourself at all, because anybody following the same logic would find the same. You are essentially absent from the process.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 12:33

Yes, I agree Elaine - it's about learning what kind of language is appropriate, isn't it? But it doesn't help to have students come up saying 'well my English teacher told me never to use 'I' and refusing to accept that maybe this is oen of the differences between school and university (though TBH I think the only reason to insist on not using the first person at school would be so as not to introduce confusion for students who are also studying subjects where its use isn't approvedof.)

TroublesomeEx · 02/12/2011 12:33

Mine was a BSc.

Perhaps that makes a difference. I don't recall! I'm sure they gave a reason for it at the time!

HardCheese · 02/12/2011 12:34

Although it's perfectly possible to put forward your opinion without using 'I' eg saying 'Critic X's argument Y doesn't consider the sudden emergence of theme Z in the novel's denouement and so... etc ' is obviously your opinion, without you having to resort to that tag beloved of my weaker students 'In my opinion I think Heathcliff was definitely black'.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 12:34

I suppose it could be an issue for joint honours students then. But there must be lots of aspects of style that vary from subject to subject - what matters is that you the student can pick up which ones are used in your subject, and why. IMO.

MillyR · 02/12/2011 12:35

I agree with LRD that it makes sense to write I if you are responding to a text in an English literature essay. I also think people use I in Philosophy when providing certain examples. It is possibly a division between Arts and Social Sciences.

ElaineReese · 02/12/2011 12:36

True, I am coming at it from an Eng Lit perspective, I'm sure there are subjects where it would be inappropriate.

It's not that I think the people are pompous, but sometimes the act of erasing yourself as the author of an essay actually means you risk universalizing what is actually an individual argument through your sentence structure, if you see what I mean....

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 12:38

Probably so, Milly.

I think there's also an element of 'do this and you won't get it hugely wrong' in some teaching - I get teh impression it's worse to use 'I' in sciences than not to use it in English. It reminds me of someone I know who was taught in English at school to use always the present tense, 'because otherwise you might accidentally change tense mid-sentence'. Hmm

MillyR · 02/12/2011 12:40

I would find 'It could be argued that...' annoying. The writer needs to make it clear if someone else has actually argued that, or if in fact they are arguing it, in which case they should explain on what grounds they are arguing it.

rhetorician · 02/12/2011 12:41

"hi, i have missed some of my classes through one thing or another, im getting on very wel with my group project but my weekly journal is praticaly non existant, how would i go about fixing this?"

I quite frequently get this type of email from students (I also get properly composed, polite ones where students take responsibility for themselves). Btw that was the entire email, not simply a quote from it.

I actively encourage students to use 'I' in essays, I think it helps them avoid clumsy passive constructions and encourages them to take more responsibility for what they are writing. Interestingly, I told a class recently that all of their mid-term essays could have done with at least one further edit, and 2 of them were quite offended - and to be fair, these 2 actually didn't have any basic errors of any kind in their essays. There are excellent students who work so so hard and take their work really seriously (and this isn't purely and simply about academic brilliance), and there are those who aren't interested and don't really care about the work at all.

MillyR · 02/12/2011 12:41

I think my last post was unclear! I meant the writer should make it clear if they are arguing it or somebody else already has.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/12/2011 12:46

I see what you're saying Milly.

Btw, the excuse email reminds me of the one we were warned to watch out for when we did our training: you'd get a complaint about how little contact time there was, and a request for 'just an hour' with the supervisor 'to talk about some difficulties'. Then you'd check, find the student hadn't attended any of the supplementary lectures, ask about that and be told 'but those are optional! I didn't go to those'.

I've never had this but apparently it was a very common complaint when they first brought in optional lectures at my place.

grumplestilskin · 02/12/2011 12:50

YABU, I am rubbish at spelling but excellent at english comprehension and friends and family always ask me to proof read their official letters and job applications etc

I would rather read something witty, well thought out, engaging, interesting, than something dull and very gramatically correct

also learning times tables "off by heart" is not the same skill as being very good at working out maths and science problems.

YOU got into university without understanding that so...

PsecretPsanta · 02/12/2011 12:53

I studied English Language at a very good redbrick. I came out with a good degree which I followed-up with a post-grad qualification.

When I went in I spelled grammar with an 'e', couldn't really tell you what a noun was, certainly couldn't tell you what an adverb was and had difficultly with apostrophies.

More importantly, I went in with an instinct for logical reasoning, the ability to absorb and understand facts and theories quickly, a deep interest in the subject, and a true desire to learn as much as I could. And I did learn. That's the point of going to university, isn't it? These students you speak of will also learn.

I am certain there are students who went to better school than me and whose grammar and spelling are very good. This does not mean they have any particular aptitude for the subject they are studying.

ElaineReese · 02/12/2011 12:54

Rhetorician, that sounds awfully familiar. No 'Dear', no 'thank you', no signature - here's my problem, solve it for me!

Worse than 'it could be argued' (could it? do it then!), to my mind, is 'many/some critics argue'. Say who (if you know, which I doubt).

MillyR · 02/12/2011 12:55

I am sure I have received emails during both my BA and MSc (actually it was probably a letter on my BA as it was that long ago) explaining that you should only book an appointment with the lecturer about academic issues once you have read the background information and have questions to ask about it. The problem seems to be students turning up having read nothing whatsoever and wanting the lecturer to explain the basics.

ElaineReese · 02/12/2011 13:00

We say that we will be unable to respond to requests for information which can be found on the VLE.

In practice, that's what we do all the effing time.

LeQueen · 02/12/2011 13:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Booboostoo · 02/12/2011 13:06

In my discipline (philosophy) if you don't say "I think" (and then argue for your view!!!), you're likely to have written a really rubbish essay. However we do have to point this out to students as other disciplines have different approaches.