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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to say this to all the teachers who are striking next week

999 replies

Memoo · 24/11/2011 14:18

As a parent I am 100 % behind you.

I really appreciate that you put your life and soul into your job and im sorry more people don't get just how hard you work for the benefit of our children.

Don't let the bastards grind you down!

OP posts:
FontSnob · 26/11/2011 13:23

Iggly it's not brave and it has been mentioned in last set of reforms. The report you keep linking to lays out the issues with different options. I and others would like to see th figures for each of those options, I'd like to see how the govt have tried to be fair and honest. You seem to be ignoring my question. Is what we are asking for unreasonable given that we don't expect no changes?

noblegiraffe · 26/11/2011 13:23

iggly, teachers are being told to work longer, pay more and receive less pension even though our pensions were reviewed and reformed in 2007 in order to be sustainable.

And the government refuses to perform an evaluation of our scheme, which was due in 2010.

All pension schemes are not the same.

noblegiraffe · 26/11/2011 13:31

The report seems to suggest that instead of simply spending the pension contribution surplus in past years, the government should have borrowed it with a promise to make up the shortfall in the years where there is a deficit.

lassylass · 26/11/2011 14:06

You still at it iggly2?

You're wasting your time. Some posters cant see beyond their own self interest. The variety of excuses coming out for them getting better pensions and retirement conditions than everyone else, and everyone else paying for those pensions, is laughable.

The unions want transparency apparently? Could have fooled me - I thought they wanted their day of strike at any cost, just to rub the 'evil torriee cnuts' noses in it.

And theyve convinced a normally reasonable set of public sector workers to ignore the selfish foundation of their argument (and they know its selfish) and push ahead on striking anyway

BoffinMum · 26/11/2011 14:24

I have to say that there is a lot of collective interest in challenging the pension situation and what the Government is saying about it.

For a long time, many people in the private sector did not always see many of the riches accruing to their companies, and it became fashionable for executives to seek to reduce manpower costs as far as possible, and asset strip companies on a whim, in search of 'profitability'. Some of these businesses have gone to the wall, because at the end of the day you need to value your workforce in order to make a continuing profit. The problem is not just that public sector pensions are now out of step with private ones, it is also that private sector bosses were not investing enough in their employees' pensions when times were good. Robert Maxwell was the apotheosis of this - his workforce lost on average seven years of pension each thanks to his ego. That is the truth that does not speak its name, that private sector employees are so often treated badly and told to feel grateful about it.

beatenbyayellowteacup · 26/11/2011 14:35

boffinmum I like your posts - thanks

niceguy2 · 26/11/2011 14:49

Like it or not, all the money the government has comes from the private sector. Someone will now tell me that public sector workers pay tax too but where do you think the government got the money from to pay you and therefore to tax you from???

I don't think there's any dispute that the private sector is in a shitter. Tax receipts collapsed on the back of that. Demand for benefits rose. Conventional wisdom dictates that govt will tuck some money aside during the good times to help with the bad but Gordon Brown had famously abolished boom & bust so he didn't put anything away for a rainy day. To make matters worse he sold off much of our gold reserves at the bottom of the market in the most stupid way ever. All those issues whipped up a perfect storm. Less money in, more money out. Zero savings.

The point I'm coming to is that it's not a case of a race to the bottom or punishing the public sector for a problem, not of their creating. But it's about spending what we can afford. If we've less money coming in, it only stands to reason we have to spend less.

Put it this way. You used to earn £3000 a month. The economy sucks, you lost your job and the new job only pays £2000 a month. But your outgoings are still £4k a month, something you are trying to sort. Your son now comes up to you and demands the deal you had with him where you buy him an xBox game every month. It's not his fault you lost your job. Why should HE suffer? He's done everything you asked including studying hard.

Is it fair you still buy him his game? Yes I'd argue it is. But the fact is you have no money so you can't.

wisebird · 26/11/2011 15:04

What niceguy2 said. Yes, teachers may be being asked to work longer and contribute more and get less, but then that is how it is in the private sector too.

Here are some figures - basically public sector workers have five times the pension of private sector workers so whilst we would all love to have better pensions, it is not right to put the burden on poorer pensioners to pay for richer pensioners - ESPECIALLY as historic, accrued rights are being protected.

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2011/nov/25/public-sector-pensions-pensions

The average public sector pension is £7,800 pa

Almost all public sector workers have defined benefits schemes.

Only a very few private sector workers still have access to defined benefit schemes and they get an average of £7,500 pa so not far off the public sector workers (although, interestingly, still less). The biggy though is that most private sector workers are on defined benefits retirement schemes and the average private sector pensioner has a pot of £20,000 which will buy an annuity of £1,400 pa.

LeQueen · 26/11/2011 15:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BoffinMum · 26/11/2011 15:10

Thanks teacup. Grin

'all the money the government has comes from the private sector'

I think it would make sense for people to move away from this input-output model of economics, because it's not how the whole thing operates. It's more about keeping money moving around, about the flow of cash within the entire system, and whether it is sufficiently spread out and reinvested for the common good.

For example, if you are a private sector construction company building a motorway, or a large public building (law court, academy, GP surgery), your money has invariably some from the taxpayer in almost all cases. If you are a large-scale publishing company like, say, Pearson, then quite a bit of your profits are coming from underpaid teachers and academics in the public sector writing books for you for practically nothing (for example only £300 for writing an entire reference book) , and then you selling them to the school, library and university sector at an enormous markup (£7 profit per copy). Network Rail are a large private company running our railways, and developing related infrastructure, and the railways were originally built by private companies, but modernisation of infrastructure generally has to be funded by and accountable to the taxpayer for various reasons, safety being one of them.

Let's take it down a level, to smaller private businesses, or suppliers that could be private. The local grocery shop benefits indirectly from EU farming subsidies that make food supplies more reliable and cheaper for all of us (although it may not feel like that at the moment). We could remove these subsidies, and the associated controls, and leave it to the invisible hand of the market/private sector but then when your milk had melamine in it as happened in China, you would have to accept the risk. The local GP - that could be private, couldn't it? After all, in Jersey doctors are private as they don't have the NHS. I mean, anyone can afford to pay £20 to see a doctor, can't they, and it could save doctors' time? Actually what it means is that you start to see adverse selection as in the US, where people with more difficult or expensive health problems are unable to find insurance and also unable to afford the full costs of private medicine. This system culminates in increasing numbers of women not having any ante-natal care at all, and only seeking medical attention in labour, because hospitals in the US are legally obliged to accept them at no charge in such circumstances. It also means babies die and the US infant mortality rate figure are comparatively poor. Plus the proportion of Gross Domestic Product spent on medical care overall shoots right up as shareholders need a return, and businesses buy each other out and need to ensure leverage, so ultimately everyone is worse off without socialised medicine (as people in the US would call it).

So what we really need is a system where we take a step back and look at the greater good, and how the markets can serve that, rather than arguing about which side is right and which is wrong (as there is no entirely public or private market in existence). If we do that we can reform society in a way that serves modern lives, rather than chasing diminishing economic resources.

niceguy2 · 26/11/2011 15:27

Boffin, I'm not arguing that the public sector isn't necessary or shouldn't be valued. Quite the contrary. There is a symbiotic relationship between the two. Without the police, army, teacher's, tax inspectors, border guards etc. etc. etc. the private sector would struggle. That's why the private sector pay tax.

In short, the private sector needs the public sector to play a supporting role in a successful economy/country.

However, as I said it is a symbiotic relationship. If one suffers, logic dictates the other must follow. Right now the private sector is in the shitter. People are have been made redundant, their pensions cut, their job security gone. Therefore it follows that it's inevitable for the public sector to feel some of the pain as it depends upon the first for money so it can support them right back.

To somehow argue that teachers deserve a special case is simply missing the entire point of the problem and sets a very dangerous precedent to the rest of the population.

beatenbyayellowteacup · 26/11/2011 15:36

It's not just teachers.

VivaLeBeaver · 26/11/2011 15:36

Well according to the guardian the nhs pension scheme takes in £2billion a year more than it pays out and is projected to be in profit in this manner for the next 21 years.

A nurse earning 31k a year will have to pay £65 a month more in pension which will account to 29k over an average career. 29k extra for a worse pension when the scheme makes a profit.

Still think this is fair?

LeQueen · 26/11/2011 15:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ilovemydogandMrObama · 26/11/2011 15:39

because LeQueen, it isn't a race to the bottom...

LeQueen · 26/11/2011 15:43

This reply has been deleted

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jenny60 · 26/11/2011 15:43

I enjoy your posts too BOF. I too am an academic and I will be out next week. My issue is this: our pension is excellent, one of the best in the country. I have no problem with paying in more as we live longer, taking a cut as it very generous and working until I'm 67 at least. But our pension is well managed and fully capitalised and our union has been treated very badly in terms of negotiations. We are not getting the information we should have from the government on this. In addition, anyone in the university sector knows, massive fees notwithstanding, that our funding is being severly cut, students' education will suffer and the whole higher education sector is a shambles. The government really is clueless and I absolutely do not trust them to deal fairly and openly with us because they have shown time and time again in our sector at least that they are not to be trusted.

VivaLeBeaver · 26/11/2011 15:45

Exactly. Like others have said the govt has done a very good job of ptching private sector against public sector.

Lequeen, if your private sector company said to you that the company pension scheme had loads of money, was in billions of profit every year but it had decided to increase your contributions to the extent where you had to pay 29k extra over your lifetime would you say that's fine? No problem?

LeQueen · 26/11/2011 15:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VivaLeBeaver · 26/11/2011 15:48

Because the scheme is in a profit.

I'm sure if private companies had pension schemes that were in profit they'd continue to run. However for some reason, probably due to companies taking contribution holidays when things were cut they got in the shit and stopped the good pensions. That wasn't fair either and maybe private sector workers should have squealed a bit louder.

LeQueen · 26/11/2011 15:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VivaLeBeaver · 26/11/2011 15:50

But the nhs pension scheme was reviewed only three years ago to take into account longer life expectancy. Changes were made then and the final salary scheme was changed to career average and the pension age went up to 68, that's the scheme I'm in and I'm fine with that. Well not fine but I accept it. When this was done in 2008 it was deemed to ensure the continued affordability of the scheme and nothing has changed since then.

VivaLeBeaver · 26/11/2011 15:52

29k is a horrendous amount of money. Not sure how much you must earn to consider it isn't?

oldenglishspangles · 26/11/2011 15:54

www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/oct/07/retired-teachers-pension-cuts interesting /informative comments thread.