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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

...to be fucking Horrified that my neighbour Killed His Dog??

232 replies

ahhyesiseeyouvepooedonyourfoot · 23/11/2011 22:21

Was chatting to our next door neighbour who is ok (I thought), in his late 40's with a lovely family and his own consultancy business. He mentioned that his dog was incontinent and probably dying and how sad his daughters were about it, all innocently I said 'Ahh thats sad when will you be taking him to vets' he said 'I'm not paying any bluddy vets I'll take him out and shoot him' (he does have guns for hunting)...cue stuttering WTFS??? from me..

He was quite indignant and said 'With our last dog me and a friend took him to a forest and injected him with ketamine, he went straight to sleep its EXACTLY what the vet would do'
I said I'm pretty sure it WASN'T exactly what the vets did and bluffed a bit about knowing they used a cocktail of drugs for different things - which in fact don't know - can any vets confirm for me?

Anyway I asked him to leave my house, I wasnt being all 'PC gorn mad' was I??

OP posts:
cazboldy · 26/11/2011 17:44

but most beef will be from beef animals, not dairy.....

and it's not like it's a by product that gets wasted....

what is cruel about that?

ExquisiteCake · 26/11/2011 17:47

I'm a country girl, putting a bullet in one swift shot to put any animal down is fine with me.

ragged · 26/11/2011 17:50

Oh god Cazboldy, where to start.
It would be lovely if veal were produced as a byproduct. Realy, I'd be overjoyed with that outcome.

This is as best as I understand, may need bits correcting:

The real outcome is the calves are separated after 2-3 days (when colostrum finishes). Then they drink formula, basically, part cow's milk part cheaper subs. The cows and their babies pine loudly for each other. Somebody on MN once said her relative... brother? switched from dairy to beef farming because of animal welfare issues (although beef production increasingly all indoors & industrialised, too).

That's the girls who get to drink cow formula.
The boys are bolted (killed) overwhelmingly, at about 36 hours old.
Most British dairy cows are now Holsteins, an American breed developed to be intensive milk producers (factory style production).

Their general well-being is not high due to the intensive pressure on them (milk prices are on the floor, , and many British farmers are quite uncomfortable with the high rates of mastitis & other health problems they tend to develop.
Holstein male calves are especially unsuitable for the veal market, hence why they get bolted.
Actually, following mid 1990s protests over live veal exports AND the industry shift to Holsteins, there's no market for male calves turned into veal (British people don't much like veal). So most, even those from Friesan cows and other breeds suited to make veal, are just bolted soon after birth, because no market for the males exists.

As for the lives of Dairy cows, it's increasingly common in the global market for dairy cows to live their whole lives in doors, fed overwhelmingly on grain. This gets high yields out of Holsteins. It is usually judged to be a very inefficient (environmentally unsustainable) practice, using arable land that could grow people food to feed cows to make milk (even more inefficient if it's to make beef, mind). The overmilked cows have high rates of infection (mastitis & other). And relatively short lives. They aren't suited to be eaten at end of those lives, so just killed & next milk-making unit rolled in...

See in ideal world we'd feed cows on grass (cheap, inedible to us, grows fast) in rotation with other crops, so cows fertilise the land inbetween crops and makes an inedible grass into something we like (milk + beef). And get to live in nice herds with other cows and their relatives In reality cows live most their lives in same sex groups, eating grain food, in stalls. I once read that cows who graze on grass produce a lot of Omega type oils in their milk + meat, too.

The Archers (Radio 4) has covered the veal calf problem in last year & is developing a storyline about mega-indoor-dairy production.

ragged · 26/11/2011 17:51

sorry for typos, typing fast as this poota crashes out often.

ExquisiteCake · 26/11/2011 17:52

Massively long essay. I like veal.

valiumredhead · 26/11/2011 17:54

I'm glad you typed all that out ragged as I saw a programme on dairy farming and was very glad I drink soya! My typing is way to slow and would've taken me years to type all that out!

ragged · 26/11/2011 17:56

Ooh, I exaggerate, great strides have been made in the dairy industry, now only a mere 80,000 calves/year are bolted after birth :(.

DooinMeCleanin · 26/11/2011 17:59

If you cannot afford vets fees, you should not own a pet. My mother's labrador had to be pts shortly after my Dad lost his job due to ill health and various other things had had to be paid for. I paid £80 to have her pts peacefully at the vets. I would have made a lot more if I needed to to end her suffering. Over my dead body would I have allowed her to be shot.

Shortly after that I paid £50 for their Akita to be cremated. Again I would have paid treble that or more if it helped ease the suffering my parents were feeling at the loss of their pets. I'm far from rich, it was a struggle for me to find this money, but my dogs are my family and they are worth every penny.

They have their dogs insured now and have an emergency fund for them also. I'd still help with costs if I needed to.

TheOriginalFAB · 26/11/2011 18:10

Has he killed the dog yet? It wasn't clear from your posts, OP.

cazboldy · 26/11/2011 18:17

we live on a dairy farm

Some of what you type is almost right, but most is vastly exaggerated, and some is plain wrong.

actually most calves never get to suckle their mums, or perhaps only once. They are given colostrum by hand very soon after birth, and the mum is usually taken away very quickly. It is sad, but in holsteins their is very little maternal instinct left usually. We have ayrshires/jerseys and they are more motherly. (they also milk much better from grass, so are better imo - i actually agree whole heartedly with you about cows being kept indoors all year round and kept intensively) They also tend to have more longevity, so we need to have fewer replacements. I also agree that the Holostein has more problems as a breed such as lameness issues and mastitis problems - but this is something that has generally come about from american genetics designed to produce more milk.

It would actually be a welfare issue to leave them with the calves for longer than this as they have been bred to produce so much milk that they produce far mor than a calf could drink. A calf will not want 40+ litres a day.....

Formula milk is far from a cheap option, and most will still be fed real milk - just waste milk that we can't put in the tank from fresh calved cows, or ones that have had any treatment

Bull calves are not destroyed and there is currently a market for them - we get about £30 each - it did used to be the case that some were destroyed but you are talking about 8 -10 years ago, and i don't know anyone that would want to do this. We can also AI cows with sexed semen now so that we get nearly all female calves, and therefore have fewer bull calves born.

Our cows mean the world to us, and we would never mistreat them. We enjoy showing them and spend ages bathing them clipping them and training them to walk on a halter. Our favourite cow Pearl, is 10 now and due to calf in may again, and will go out to the shows in the summer and hopefully live for about another 5-6 years no problem Smile

Just like in every industry there are good ones and bad ones, but it is offensive to tar all with the same brush. I agree that the milk price is shocking - which sometimes encourages people to cut corners, and some people can't afford to employ people to do the work necessary.

we currently get about 26.5 p per litre...... I don't know what it costs in the supermarket, but it's thanks to tesco/asda that british cows have a bit of a raw deal

valiumredhead · 26/11/2011 18:23

Still glad I drink soya!

mousymouse · 26/11/2011 18:39

a liter costs more than a pound...
glad I'm buying organic.

MollyintheMoon · 26/11/2011 18:49

So are all organic milk cows grass fed?

mousymouse · 26/11/2011 18:51

not neccessarily, but better quality feed and a fairer deal for the farmers.

cazboldy · 26/11/2011 18:53

not necessarily "better quality" just not grown with pesticides/ fertliser.

therefore production costs for the farmer are higher, so not really a better deal for them either.

ragged · 26/11/2011 18:59

Ooh, Caz, thanks for the insights, I am glad to be corrected where appropriate. May I just ask a few questions?

We have ayrshires/jerseys...

It would actually be a welfare issue to leave them with the calves for longer ...as they have been bred to produce so much milk that they produce far mor than a calf could drink. A calf will not want 40+ litres a day.....

Why couldn't you leave the calves with them AND have some of the excess milk, why does it have to be one or the other?

Bull calves are not destroyed
Why does Compassion in World Farming say 80,000/year; are their numbers very out of date? Or is it just because you have Jerseys, not Holsteins? Confused

AMFP says that 93% of British dairy industry was Holsteins as recently as 2008.

We can also AI cows with sexed semen now so that we get nearly all female calves, and therefore have fewer bull calves born.

That sounds like a very good solution; but why did TA run such a long story on unwanted bull calves so recently, then? Confused Does it cost considerably more to have sexed semen, in spite of the more useful girl calves resulting?

ragged · 26/11/2011 19:06

Sorry, AFMP in last link...
CWIF says 118,000 calves killed at birth in 2009, so I guess 80k is an improvement.

cazboldy · 26/11/2011 19:11

yeah of course! Smile

i'm not sure how keeping them together would work...... i think in general they would "hold up" their milk, (they have a let down reflex like we do) - plus, they would have to be separated eventually. Don't you think it would be more distressing after 6 months or so? It's interesting though..... i wonder if any farmers do that!?!

As for CIWF's figures - I have no idea.... Ask them Grin but really, I can't believe anyone would shoot bull calves through choice. Think about it. My husband can stay up for hours helping a cow to calf..... you help it out, you wipe it's little nose so it can breathe, you pull it round so it's mum can lick it, you watch it until it stands to feed, or feed it yourself, letting it suck your fingers in the bucket...... then shoot it in the morning Hmm That's evil!

Recently there has been a surge in "coloured breeds" (thats what we call jerseys/ayrshires) for all the reasons i mentioned, but holsteins are probably the most popular still. - i don't know why!

I don't know about why the archers done that story either..... maybe it still is 80,000..... Maybe some farmers still do in other parts of the country? I don't know!

Yes sexed semen is approx 3x the cost....but we feel it is worth it!

ragged · 26/11/2011 19:24

I presumed that separating mum+calf maximised margins (which we know are too low already), allows one to milk the most at predictable times, and only twice a day. Only need to clean the equipment so often, for instance. And the more calves about the higher density of animals to pass on disease (maybe).

I suppose I'm guessing that it'd be kinder if they weren't separated until quite a bit older, that's got to be more psychologically normal. I expect they are better able to take it then. It's the separation of cow+newborn calf that bothers me most about the whole thing, if I'm honest. But only 3 lactations per Holstein is pretty shocking, too. And there's this thing about grass-fed cow's producing more of the good-fatty acids in their products (will google on that now).

3x the cost sounds cheap at the price, really.

I wish that milk from non Holstein herds was generally labeled as such.

ragged · 26/11/2011 19:27

wow, heaps about it! Not sure I should keep taking this thread away on tangents, but yes grass-fed cows produce lots of good fatty acids, in beef & milk, if anyone wants to google it.

Back to OP... I hope your neighbour's dog dies a quick unscarey death, however it happens.

cazboldy · 26/11/2011 19:39

it is labelled - channel isles or gold top Smile

yes sorry for the hijack op

MollyintheMoon · 26/11/2011 19:42

What about Yeo Valley? They've just won that compassion in world farming award. I wonder what cows they use?

cazboldy · 26/11/2011 19:53

it's probably more about management, than the breed of cow molly. Smile

MollyintheMoon · 26/11/2011 20:07

From what's been said here though it's the breed of cow that is crucial in terms of its welfare. Confused

cazboldy · 26/11/2011 20:46

personally i think it does..... but that's just my opinion!

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