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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think this is wrong, wrong, WRONG - or could it be that she is right?

80 replies

Bugsy2 · 22/11/2011 15:05

My own experience with ex-H colours my view, so I thought I'd run it by the court of MN.
I've been friends with another single mum from school for a couple of years now. I went out with her on Sat night & she obviously thought we'd got to the stage where she could confide in me.
She told me that she has been having an affair with a married man for 6+ years. She doesn't want him to leave his wife (& DCs) and it sounds (from her) as though he doesn't have any intention of doing so. She says that she is saving his marriage, because without her he would have left years ago. Obviously there were hours of chat, but that is the bones of it.
This has to be wrong doesn't it? I was stunned, as she doesn't strike me as the delusional type - let alone a husband shagger.
Oh, I did ask her what she got out of it & (as a brief summary) she said lots of great sex & a close friendship she values.
Maybe I need to have a more French view of life - perhaps it is fine? It has completely changed the way I see her. AIBU?

OP posts:
Whatmeworry · 22/11/2011 19:37

I reckon if people had to drop all friendships with people who are having affairs there would be social carnage.

RomanKindle · 22/11/2011 19:37

I'm with flatbread.

Having an affair is wrong - if you are married. The op's friend isn't. And if she wasn't shagging him he wouldn't be living in marital bliss either - he would be shagging someone else.

whoopeecushion · 22/11/2011 19:52

flatbread - in my case, I gave them (DH and OW) 50/50 for blame/anger etc. The OW was a colleague, saw the pics of me, DH and the kids that he has at work and added to that had her own child and husband Sad. So my DH was a lying, cheating husband and the OW was a lying cheating wife, albeit not married to me (!)

I may have taken an alternative view (ie 75/25), had the OW been young, free, single, childless, naive etc. But I would add that she was on her 2nd marriage - her 1st husband cheated on her (causing divorce) when her child was young so she knew exactly what the fallout could be. Although she didn't owe me anything regarding marriage vows, she owed me and my children some humanity. (She cheated on her 1st H as well but that's just complicating matters Grin).

Anyway don't worry about me! It was 2 years ago and we have both put a lot into getting sorted out and are virtually there. It isn't painful anymore, but I remember how painful it was and how many people were unexpectedly devastated by it (my DB, godfather to my DCs was in tears thinking of their potential upset, I didn't expect that! my 70yo MIL was beside herself, sitting on the floor crying, apologising for her son's behaviour - it goes on, but people who just think "French" as described on this thread underestimate the potential for hurt to so many people).

RomanKindle · 22/11/2011 19:57

I disagree I think it is 100% the fault of the person who is married/in a relationship (50/50 if they both are). No-one makes anyone cheat and if they aren't cheating with one particular person it isn't going to make them faithful.

whoopeecushion · 22/11/2011 20:00

RomanKindle - I disagree. Your point is certainly correct about if they aren't cheating with one particular person, they'll cheat with another however that does not possibly equate to the OW being blameless - my point about humanity.

gamerwidow · 22/11/2011 20:06

OP I think what your friend is doing is morally wrong but I don't think it would be enough for me to end a friendship with her if she had other good qualities.

I think the truely terrible person in this scenario is the man she is cheating with. I have no problem with people not being monogamous but I do think it's important not to deceive people and I feel sorry for his poor wife.

RomanKindle · 22/11/2011 20:06

But the ow wouldn't be keeping the family together by ending/not starting the affair. The man (or woman) would just look elsewhere if they don't value their marriage. So the act of the individual ow has no effect on the families sufferring at all.
I have never had an affair and never will btw because I would want to sleep with the kind of selfish a-hole who would cheat on their wife but if dh cheated I would hold him 100% responsible.

TheOriginalFAB · 22/11/2011 20:08

Maybe things would be better if people respected everyone's marriage vows, not just their own.

RomanKindle · 22/11/2011 20:18

Does that go for other contracts too FAB? A marriage is an agreement and a promise between a husband and a wife. Blaming the ow for 'luring' a man away from his wife is just a massive let off for the man. You can't be lured if you're faithful and you don't want to be.

Hellfire · 22/11/2011 20:21

What this woman does is entirely her own business and doesn't really affect you. I personally don't consider her to be a 'complete bitch' and certainly not a 'sad case', that's a cheap shot along the lines of 'she must be insecure'. Whether she's saving the marriage and preventing the husband from leaving his DW, who can tell? I'd doubt it, it;s more likely that she's just stopping him from shagging someone else but it is possible.

whoopeecushion · 22/11/2011 20:22

RomanKindle - if you extrapolate your point, to the situation where all OWs are unwilling to have affairs with married men, then the families of the married man wouldn't suffer due to the actions of an OW. That's part of the point of humanity. The other part is the point that FAB has made - all marriage vows need to be respected, not just one's own.

And as a side point, many, many cheaters are those who meant their marriage vows 100% and who once said "I will never ever have an affair". My H certainly falls into that category and if you read the relationships board, you will see that it applies to a huge number of cheaters. Some cheaters of course are those who never intended to respect their marriage vows in the first place!

flatbread · 22/11/2011 20:22

But then again, Original, how do we know what people's marriage vows are? What about open marriages or marriages of convenience or marriages in which the parties hate each other,, but stick it out for children or whatever.

There are so many types of marriages.

whoopeecushion · 22/11/2011 20:24

"You can't be lured if you're faithful and you don't want to be"

Unfortunately you can. I'm not referring to my situation as that's not what happened with my DH, but I can tell you from reading the relationships board that both men and women who don't want to cheat can be lured.

ThePathanKhansWitch · 22/11/2011 20:24

I wouldn't judge a friend, but i would worry for her. What can you do?, as some wise previous poster said, if we all fell out with friends who have affairs there would be social carnage.

IME people do what they want to do, despite what may turn out to be awful consequences.

RomanKindle · 22/11/2011 20:25

whoopee - if all ow were unwilling to have affairs then men would just lie to them too and pretend not to be married imo. The problem is that some people are incapable of being or don't want to be faithful. If everyone took their own marriage vows seriously it wouldn't matter what other people did.

RomanKindle · 22/11/2011 20:28

whoopee - in regard to people being 'lured'. People may think it's wrong to cheat and feel torn but if they go ahead and do it anyway then they are in full control of their actions. They obviously don't want to be faithful enough to stop them cheating.

Bugsy2 · 22/11/2011 20:36

I think what bugs me is the deception. However, my friend isn't really deceiving anyone - although she says she has told very few people about the affair & her DS has no idea.
She told me that she has known the MM for most of her adult life & when her own marriage broke down he pursued her. She says she batted him off for nearly 2 years & has been having the affair for 6 years. I feel ill when I think of someone's husband being emotionally if not physically unfaithful for 8 flipping years. Took me 3 months to sniff out ex-H and that was bad enough.
I'm not a pitchfork kind of person & actually I'm happier without ex-H. I would never have left him & I was very hurt at the time by his affair, but we weren't right for each other.
She has been a good friend & her calm, chilled manner is always a tonic to my tightly sprung, controlled, OCD way of being. I am erring on the side of not commenting at all & keeping the friendship.

OP posts:
thenightsky · 22/11/2011 20:37

OP, I would not judge your friend at all.

I could type reams about why, but flatbread has said it all really.

FredFredGeorge · 22/11/2011 20:40

For all everyone knows the mans wife may know all about and perfectly happy with the situation, The three of them could be happy with it all, and I think YABU to judge a situation where you don't know all the facts (only knowing friends idea)

So I don't think you should comment, and I don't see why it needs to change your friendship with her at all. Surely you have lots of friends who think and do things you disagree with?

hardboiledpossum · 22/11/2011 20:42

I agree with muminscotland and originalfab.
I would find it hard to continue a friendship with someone who did this. I see my choice in friends a reflection of myself.

Flatbread, do you think indulgent parents have questionable morals?

whoopeecushion · 22/11/2011 20:44

Both your points above come down to the same argument, which is that if the married person wanted to stay faithful badly enough, then they would, regardless of any other party. It is not as black and white as that, so much more complicated, and WWIFN puts it better than I could ever: this is one of her posts from this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1074763-Triggers-for-emotional-detachment-WWIFN/AllOnOnePage (her husband cheated on her and she read loads about it and helped loads of other people in similar positions

I agree that Shirley Glass's book describes this very well, but I have seen this happening at all stages of the life cycle, not just in 30-somethings with young children.

To understand this in all its complexity, it is necessary to look at a person's attachment style (people with a dismissive attachment style are more prone to infidelity), their lifestyle vulnerabilities (if their family, friends and workplace are tolerant of infidelity and there are many opportunities), their selfishness and sense of entitlement and then finally, their state of mind and view of themselves prior to the affair. In this type of affair too, it is hugely significant about whether the affair partner pursued the attachment; who made the first move.

If we use a male example, what often happens is that a man is feeling low and even mildly depressed about life. Responsibility might be overwhelming and his partner's attention divided (young DCs). An older man might be feeling less needed by teenage DCs and his competent wife. He might be feeling old, grey and out of potential, having hit a ceiling at work. He cannot in truth say that his wife wouldn't understand how he is feeling, because normally she would give anything to help him with these feelings and support him, but he doesn't want to admit to his wounded pride and hates talking about feelings, anyway. So he hunkers down and suppresses how low he is feeling.

He would say if anyone asked at this point that he loved his wife enormously and was happily married. He would laugh at the notion that he would ever have an affair.

In a terrible coincidence of timing, along comes someone who wants an affair with him. It might not be obvious at first and he is normally in complete denial about his own intentions. He just knows that the positive mirroring and stroking he is getting from this woman makes him feel good about himself, when he has been feeling so bad.

He pretends that this is just a friendship and is a nice distraction in a life filled with mundane responsibilities. It makes the day go quicker, except that he now looks forward to their interactions more eagerly. He is becoming addicted to the feelings, but he doesn't know it.

Because he is by now in the grip of an addiction to the feelings, if not the affair partner herself, all he cares about is that it keeps coming in plentiful quantities. He might not even need the affair to involve sexual activity, but he does need sexual flattery and adoration.

At some (often subconscious) level, he realises where this could be heading, but because his lifelong beliefs are that people don't do this when they are happily married, he again subconsciously realises that he must detach somewhat from his wife to create a gap to let the affair partner in. He is not someone who can have a strong emotional connection to the woman he is deceiving, so it is necessary to reduce it. So he starts to create a distance and a detachment, from what was once a happy and fulfilling marriage, to a woman he has always adored. In effect, he needs to adore her less because if he adores her, he cannot get his fix from the addiction that has now taken hold.

I cannot stress enough how entirely subconscious this is, in most cases. And so often, it takes a long time for a man in this position to get himself to the position when he can say "yes" to an affair. Slow-burning work friendships, or any other friendship, provide the time needed to detach emotionally from a happy marriage.

Once the self-permission is given, the man will often minimise its impact and meaning; telling himself that this is just a bit of escapist fun, no-one need ever find out and get hurt, it will never lead anywhere, it will be a fun adventure (maybe the last) etc. The guilt often doesn't kick in until physical infidelity has occurred.

In the final analysis, this affair has happened not because of anything to do with the betrayed spouse, or the marriage. It is all to do with the unfaithful party; their state of mind, their character, their personality. They might never have gone looking for an affair and they certainly didn't want their marriage to end, or affected in any way in fact. But when an opportunity arose, they had to do a number on their marriage to allow them to say "yes" and they did this after they had long since become addicted to the positive mirroring and ego boost.

This person is often as shocked as their spouse when it all ends messily and horribly and the real consequences are felt. It is also a massive surprise when they are able to detach from the affair partner very easily, but of course it really wasn't about this person at all, but the feelings she evoked.

Does this help?

RomanKindle · 22/11/2011 20:50

Not really - just seems like a list of excuses for a cheater. Very few people have an easy life - some remain faithful to their partners and some don't.

I know people who won't let their oh go out on their own so they don't cheat on them. Denying someone the opportunity to cheat doesn't make them a faithful person.

Bugsy2 · 22/11/2011 20:52

Whoopee, I used to love all this stuff when ex-H had his affair, because it made me feel like I was completely absolved from having any responsibility for the state of our marriage. Thing is, it really does take two to tango (sorry to be so corny) & if one person won't come to the dancefloor you can't dance.
I just don't think it is that simple - but what do I know?

OP posts:
RomanKindle · 22/11/2011 20:56

I agree Bugsy. There may be times that people are more vulnerable in life but ultimately people have free will and are in control of what choices they make.

whoopeecushion · 22/11/2011 20:59

OK, I can see you don't agree with my point, and that's fine Smile.

I just want to tell you that in the 10 years we were married prior to my DH cheating, he considered cheating to be absolutely terrible and was 100% sure he would never, ever be a cheater. A few years previously, he had seen a colleague cheat (wife, young DCs) and was shocked. Never, ever did he think he would turn into that person, but he did. This is not unusual, at all (in fact it's pretty much a cliche!).

Having said all that, I do agree with you to some extent because, personally, I can never see myself cheating and think that there is no chance of me ever doing it. Grin - need an irony emoticon!

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