to cut contact with my mum because she is racist

[Anon122]

My mum makes a lot of comments about "pikeys" which I find offensive and deeply distasteful. I think these comments are racist, but please don't turn this into an argument about whether or not "pikey" is a racist term. Even if you don't consider it to be racist, the comments are still offensive and disgusting. For example, today I was talking to her on skype, and she said she doesn't feel safe going to the village shop. This is because the pub next door to it attracts people who she is calling pikeys. I told her that I find the term offensive and that it is generally considered to be racist. She said she doesn't care and (quoting here) "they should be burned. Or pikeys should be drowned at birth". I don't believe that my mum would genuinely support genocide, but she doesn't have any qualms about saying these kinds of things semi-publicly and in front of my dc.

Following the comment which I quoted above, I hung up the skype call and I'm now crying. I am pregnant and hormonal atm, so maybe I'm overreacting. But this is a reoccurring issue which my mum and I have argued about since I was about 14 or 15. She grew up in a small village with very closed-minded parents and has always considered these kinds of comments to be normal. I find them deeply offensive. I have tried explaining hundreds of times why I find comments like these and others like them offensive and inappropriate. For another example she refers to the shop in the next village as "the paki shop" because the people who own it are black (and almost certainly not from Pakistan). When I call her on how racist that is she mocks me by calling it "the native American shop" (for no apparent reason) instead. When I try to explain this to her she accuses me of being a snob, she tells me that going to university changed me (I was the first person in my family to go to university) and says she thinks I must have been swapped in the hospital when I was born, because I don't fit in with the rest of the family. My dad is much better than my mum, but he never bothers to call her on her comments, although he has always backed me up when I have. Both of my siblings and many of my mum's friends use similar language, and they think I don't have a sense of humour when I say that I find it offensive.

I have actually threatened to stop my mum from seeing my dc if she makes racist comments in their presence, but she doesn't seem to take it seriously. She brushed these threats off by saying that I have nothing to fear because I'm obviously happy with the way I turned out yet I grew up hearing her racism. She also likes to remind me that the only reason I managed to go to university and become a snob in the first place was because she made it possible for me. (This is not strictly true, my parents didn't give me any emotional or financial support during any of my degrees, but I think they believe they did, and they are generally proud of me).

So, AIBU to cut contact with my mum because her racism upsets and offends me? I know I'm not going to change her but I don't want to keep hearing these kinds of comments and I don't want my dc to ever hear them. But I also don't want to make things awkward for my dad, who I don't want to cut out. And I don't know if it would be better for my dc to not have my mum in their lives, or to have a grandmother who they don't really see that often, who makes the occasional racist comment (which if I'm honest I probably can teach my dc to ignore or explain to them why it's wrong).

It's not an extreme reaction.

Not wanting to have anyhting to do with racists isn't extreme. Who wants that sort of shit round their kids or in their lives? It's just too irksome to tolerate.

OP I think there's a lot more than racism going on here. It sounds to me as if your mother is jealous of you or resents your educational success. This is quite a common phenomenon among people whose children are the first in their family to go to university - Coronation Street handled it brilliantly when it first came out, with Ken Barlow's clashes with his family and "de-classing". We don't talk much about it anymore because there's this myth that class doesn't exist anymore, but it certainly seems to exist for your Mum. She doesn't sound proud of your achievements, she sounds resentful from what you are saying.

It's not an extreme reaction

Ostracising your own mother because she uses Words That Offend You isn't an extreme reaction? What is extreme then - tarring and feathering her?

As a matter of interest, how many people here advocating the Ostracising Of The Mother actually have kids?

It can be worse when elderly people are politically incorrect and don't even realise !

My mum is 80 and earlier this year spent 3 weeks in hospital. When I visited one evening, she was telling me how kind the nurses were and that they were really good to her. The nicest one she said and nothing was too much trouble for her was the little "darkie" nurse. I had a coughing fit and nearly fell off my chair

My son married a black South African girl this July and my mum loves her to bits. And, I still haven't tackled her on that comment, she truly is oblivious that it would have been deemed offensive. Think I shall have to have a word incase of any other hospital visits!

Firstly, I was referring to the brother in this case.

Secondly, it isn't ostracising someone because they use words you don't like. It's having as little to do with them as possible because their world view, their values and their dirty talk around your kids, are disgusting.

Don't try and trivialise this as something about just well-meaning nice old bat who occasionally slips up and uses the wrong word. It's about a whole world view which talks about murdering children at birth. If you're happy to spend your time with people who have those views, that's your choice. It's absolutely the prerogative of anyone else, to not spend their time with people with that sort of world-view, genetically related or not.

And yes I do have children and I recognise that my children have the right to not have a relationship with me when they are adults if they don't want to. So I'd better make sure they want to, right, by being a decent person and bringing them up to be decent people who appreciate my decency.

I'm not saying that the OP should cut off her mother necessarily. Although I do think there's a lot more going on here than the racism. I absolutely believe that all of us have the right to choose who we want to have relationships with and that that choice is not constrained by our genetic and social relationship to them.

Alwaysme I think that's the difference between your mother and the OP's mother - your mother isn't saying the nurse's children should be killed at birth, is she. The odd un-PC slip here and there, is a world away from the sort of shit the OP"s mother is coming out with.

Having nothing to do with someone at work or in a pub because of their views on a particular subject is not extreme.

To end a relationship with your brother simply because of "racist views" alone and in the absence of other factors can only be regarded as an extreme reaction.

To me, ShengdanRoad and her brother obviously have more problems than his views on a particular topic.

Well I think that depends on how important you think the dehumanisation of another section of the population is.

I think everyone has the right to set their own standards as to what they find acceptable or not. And if you don't find a racist world view acceptable, it is not extreme to dump your brother.

TBH I don't see how anyone would "just" have a racist world view. All the racists I've ever met (and I've met a few) have all sorts of other disgusting views as well. All the ones I know are a combination of misogynist, narrow minded, angry, self-righteous and in some way damaged as well. I've never met a charming, well-meaning, warm-hearted, loving racist. I've met a few who can do the Hail Fellow Well Met act for a while, but they can't keep it up indefinitely, the ugliness of their character shines through once you've known them for a while.

Honestly I really don't know why some people are invested in telling other people that racist views are not that big a deal. They are, they're an enormous deal: they tell you an awful lot about the psychology and priorities and values of a person. They're not just a side issue. IMO

Whatmeworry, I think you're misrepresenting me here. I don't deny that I find my mum's choice of words distasteful, and I would complain about them even without the other stuff. But to me the bigger issue is really the fact that she thinks it's ok to make comments about drowning newborns and burning people because they're different to her. I don't think she would actually support genocide if, by some horrible series of events, it became a possibility. However I also don't think that excuses making these kind of "joke" comments even if she doesn't really mean them. I don't want to hear that. I have been tackling her on these kinds of comments for such a long time now and it just doesn't change. I think the first time I complained to my mum about her racism I was 14 or 15, that's nearly 20 years ago now. She is still making exactly the same kind of comments. So should I accept that talking to my mum is often very unpleasant because she is either saying something racist or I am trying to move the conversation artificially away from something which might start her saying something racist? or should I give up because the relationship is always going to be uncomfortable at best? I don't want my dc to hear my mum talking about drowning newborns when they're so excited about their pending little brother or sister, and I really don't know how to make sure they don't hear it.

Eleanor, I don't think that class is really playing that much of a role here, although it's a possibility I hadn't thought of. I do sometimes wonder if she makes racist comments as often and as offensively to my sister, or whether it is something she reserves for me because she knows I'm more likely to be offended, and she's just looking for an argument.

Well it does sound rather like she enjoys undermining you and sneering at your achievements, rather than being pleased about them. And that she enjoys winding you up as well - it's interesting that you say that she mgiht not be so extreme in the presence of your sister as she knows it won't have the same effect.

TBH the racism is offensive enough, but on a more personal level, I find it really striking that it looks as though she may be deliberately winding you up and looking for chances to upset me. Even if the racism weren't an issue for you, that alone would be IMO.

"Oh, and lassylass is talking utter bollocks. Calling people 'pikeys' and 'pakis' was never 'the norm' in my family. We have more class and bloody human decency than that!"

I doubt that. Your views are the product of 20 years of social engineering and control, drummed into you at school. The views they were brought up around were entirely different.

They were good parents to read the way things were going and shield you from it though. Or they lived in fear of saying a Bad Word, in case you reported them to social services or something. We all know the type.

LOL that should read looking for chances to upset you.

Am identifying too closely with you

OH yes because there was never any social engineering before 1992.

As I said before, Tony Benn is in his eighties and has always been an anti racist.

There have always been decent people in society.

I suspect that mumbrane knows more about her family than any random interweb poster.

So, in essence Elanor you are agreeing with me?

There is more to this than just offence at racist views (mother and/or brother).

I am and I'm not Pendeen.

I don't agree that racism is not something worth getting angry about and if necessary, cutting off relations with someone about (I think people can cut off relations with others for any reason they choose, really) but I do agree with you that this particular problem is about more than racism. I do think there's something else going on here apart from the hate-speak.

Benn was well ahead of the curve and is not reflective of the views of his generation. They didnt have the same kind of social brainwashing back then.

"I suspect that mumbrane knows more about her family than any random interweb poster."

I'm sure she does. Thanks for your input.

Whatmeworry, I think you're misrepresenting me here

I think you are misrepresenting yourself tbh, to feel this strongly about a fairly small issue makes me think there are other, deeper things at play here.

You asked AYBU. My answer is yes. On a scale of things to Be Offended about such that you cut contact with your own mother IMO this is small beer.

I would cut contact if it were me but my kids are mixed race so that adds another dimension to it.

I would do what I have done in the past when confronted with similar circumstances. I would tell the person that I couldnt carry on seeing them if they persisted but I would always be there if they decided to change their ways.

You cannot force someone to change but you can explain what you will do if they dont.

I would say that is fair enough in pretty much all circumstances when someone is doing something you find offensive.

You have very little in common with your mum and she seems to have very little empathy with you, OP. In fact, she appears to take pleasure in making you feel bad about have your values.

If you want her to have a relationship with your kids you'll want to set ground rules. If she's really motivated to be a proper grandma (given she's pretty much admitted she is what she is and doesn't care) then she'll abide by those rules when around your kids.

Many of us have difficult relationships with our parents (for whatever reason) and I've often thought that personally I'd like to keep my df away from me but I don't want my ds to miss out. So I establish ground rules for his behaviour with me ( no issues with his behaviour with ds. In your case your dm's behaviour in terms of her language is not good for your kids. But perhaps her love is? If so, ground rules (with consequences) on her use of language which is not on, and illegal depending on where she is at the time and who she is talking to, AND be prepared to instigate the consequences.

Your dm might then learn how to be a loving grandma that makes her loved and wanted (and she can keep her thoughts to herself and that will take self control on her part - that's her responsibility).

I would cut off contact - she sounds a nasty individual, and I think the endless racial hatred (which is what she is doing, what with the comments about drowning at birth etc) coming on top of the snidey undermining of the OP would tip the balance.

On reflection, she doesn't sound like the kind of person that I would want my children to be around.

And she is not old. 53 is not old at all, this is not a doddery old soul in her 90s. Racism has been unacceptable for the vast majority of this woman's life. My DP is just 50, 50 is young. She is just a vile human being by the sounds of it.

Lot's of older people use certain terms to describe ethnic minorities, that seem racist to us. They were told it was normal in the 70's etc. You should have seen what was on TV in those days. Lot's of older people think that Britain was a better place when they were younger before mass imigration rightly or wrongly.

YABU not to put it down to ignorance, she is your mum.

Haven't read the thread but guess it was a thread to wind people up.

adams the OPs mum is 53 not 90.

I am 44 so almost of the same generation.
I am sure there are MNers who are the same age.

She is being racist and she knows it.

We've covered this Adam.

Offensive, kneejerk, unthinking racist terms are not the same as out and out hatespeak.

The OP's mother comes out with the latter, not the former. And as keeps on being repeated as nauseum, she is in her fifties, not her nineties.

Whatmeworry, I still don't understand why you think I would be unreasonable not to continue putting myself in a situation which upsets and offends me, and makes my job as a parent harder. What do you perceive to be a "fairly small issue" here? I think making comments about drowning newborn babies to someone pregnant is a fairly major mistake at best. Especially when it is packaged as not only murdering babies but also disgusting racism. On top of that, this is something she knows upsets and offends me, and has been something we have clashed on for the best part of the last 20 years. It would upset me to know that she privately thought racist things. I just cannot understand why she says them to me, unless it is to upset me. I don't understand which part of that could be considered a fairly small issue.

Adam, this certainly is not a thread to wind people up. I've been on mn for quite a long time and I just name changed for this thread because I would be ashamed for anyone who knows me to realise that this is what my mum is like. My mum can't really claim ignorance of it being offensive when I have been calling her on it since I was 14 or 15. Time has moved the same speed for her as for everyone else and she has had ample opportunity to keep up if she wanted to. Also, while you might be right that vocabulary which we now think of as offensive were once common (I think Paki was once a relatively common word) that is simply not the case for genocide. I do not believe that genocide has been considered socially acceptable in the UK for a very very long time.

How depressing that I will soon be classed as 'too old to know any better'

OP I have no idea why adam thinks this is a thread just to wind people up. Maybe racism is not an important issue to her?

It is too me and I can see why you are upset.

I too don't think this thread is a windup at all, and good on you OP for taking insidious remarks like that so seriously. I don't agree with some of the sentiments on this thread that because she is your mum, you should put up and shut up as she doesn't know any better, and this kind of vitriol was normal in the 1970s.

It does seem to be in addition to a load of very low level nastiness directed towards you for years.

This is an excellent comment from upthread "I would do what I have done in the past when confronted with similar circumstances. I would tell the person that I couldnt carry on seeing them if they persisted but I would always be there if they decided to change their ways."