To be dreadfully sad that in the 21st century child abuse seems to be part of the culture in a so-called modern, progressive and enlightened country like the USA

[Perriwinkle]

I've been watching a lot of American baby programmes on satellite TV lately and have been horrified and saddened to see how many parents, who appear to be loving, caring, very protective parents who are determined to everything right by their children, have their sons circumcised in hospital just before they bring them home.

These parents then get stressed and worried when these babies are what they describe as "fussy" (which I've gathered seems to mean a collection of things such as not feeding/sleeping/settling well and crying a lot). Clearly these poor babies are in huge discomfort, due to the barbaric and hugely invasive and unnecessary procedure that's been carried out on them.

When the parents are talking to camera about their early experiences of parenthood, how it has made them feel and what their hopes are for the future, they are all full of wanting to do the best for their child, to love, cherish and protect them and about being the best parents they possibly can for their child. This seems to be so at odds with giving consent for that child to have its genitals mutilated just a day or two earlier.

One woman I saw was talking about how she was in pieces when her son had to "get his first shots" as she called it (injections I assume?) yet she said nothing about his circumcision. I know that the vast majority have it done because when you see them changing nappies you know they have had it done because they have big wadge of gauze there to protect the wound site and you often hear them saying they have to be careful due to the circumcision. If only these parents could be educated to see that it is not in their child's best interests to have him circumcised, rather than thinking it is.

I really can't believe that this practice is still carried out as routinely and widely as it is in the USA even though there is no medical justification for it and no sound evidence to justify that it is in any way beneficial or more hygenic than leaving the baby intact.

What a shame that in many cases such clearly educated and rational people, who do not appear to have any religious imperative to carry out this barbaric practice are still doing this to their children in their droves. It means that millions of children are being subjected to this abusive practice on a daily basis in the USA.

Surely with proper education and information this could be turned around and this vile practive wiped out? I know having it done due to a religious imperative is a whole different argument but surely if non Jewish and Islamic people were properly informed and enlightened on the subject surely the incidence of this completely unneccessary abusive practice could be drastically reduced and in time eschewed by the overwhelming majority of parents?

I understand that routine non ritual circumcision was once a feature of many cultures but that it has successfully died out due to education and enlightenment. Wouldn't it be lovely to think the same could happen in the USA?

YANBU. It's abuse.

Tbh OP, you would MUCH better spending your time having a look at this in-depth report from the BBC on the numbers of children who die from abuse and neglect in the USA - it is not for the faint hearted. Statistically you have much, much higher incidents of both abuse and neglect than anywhere else in the western world. This is what should make you - and every other American - sad and take action to change it.

To be honest, most mothers in America don't even give a second thought to having it done. It just doesn't occur to most of them that the choice is there NOT to do it. (My informal survey of my friends back in the U.S. has revealed that they didn't even realize most of the world's men are uncircumscized. It's just another unpleasant aspect of a very medicalized birthing system in the States---from epidurals, episiotomies, labor inductions...all the things that Europeans view as so "foreign" with regards to American medical practices. It's just what is done.

We are fed the line from the O.B.s and pediatricians that if there is ever a medical necessity for it down the line, the procedure is extremely painful and has a greater risk of complication than if it is taken care of in a child's first few days of life. My newborn was fine after the procedure and today he is a happy, jolly little 3 year old. No trauma as a result. I do NOT view myself as a child abuser, however.

Although, tbh, If I had another son I would probably not have him circ'd. Living in Britain has given me a new perspective.

The OP is not American

Fair enough Pendeen - rereading it again you are obviosuly right on that count. However OP, if you are concerned enough about child abuse in the US to post on here....then please re-direct your concern and support to the much bigger issues outlined via my BBC link. They are horrifc and cause far more pain and suffering than male circumcision IMHO. (I have no reason to particularly support circumcision btw - it is alien to me culturally, however I do think there are much bigger issues than circumcision surrounding child protection in the US. I wasn't aware of the starkness of the numbers of chilren dying through abuse until I read the BBC report.)

OP if your husband has suffered from circumcision probably due to it being done at a late age then of course you will think it's evil. But you are projecting an awful lot.

I'm American. I've had lots of boyfriends, good male friends, etc, and none of them have suffered in any way because of circumcision. Honestly.

On the other hand, I've known a number of people who were abused and they have indeed suffered from that their whole lives.

I think circumcision is unnecessary and will probably diminish over the next few decades. But it is a medical procedure, performed under anesthetic, when the baby is not aware of what is going on. It is not the same thing as children being violently beaten and neglected.

As for the idea that all these American babies are fussy or problematic because of circumcision, what planet are you on? There are whole sections of MN devoted to fussy and problematic babies, have they all been circumcised then?

*HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, still chortling after suggestion up thread that the human body is perfect "just like God intended" (or words to that effect).

I don't know where to start - piss and shit, myopia, appendix or skin cancer?*

Piss, shit and skin cancer in the same line as perfect human body and you expect to be taken seriously?

I don't even know how to begin to reason this piece of verbal diarrohea with you, so I won't even bother.

So we should never challenge antiquated practices or ideas for fear of being called racist? Despite the fact that race has bugger all to do with it.

Pretty impressed there's been an accusation here of trying to offend muslims and jews specifically. Wow

Should you be allowed to do it in the name of religion? NO, you bloody well shouldn't.

Notyummy I read that BBC report the day it came out.
It's bloody awful, quite frankly.

So we should never challenge antiquated practices or ideas for fear of being called racist? Despite the fact that race has bugger all to do with it. Pretty impressed there's been an accusation here of trying to offend muslims and jews specifically. Wow

Well, given that its a Muslim and Jewish practice that you are deeming as child abuse, from the lofty morally superior heights of your Western prejudices.....

Circumcision:
Looks awful
lessens sexual pleasure
Is pretty barbaric (especially when a group of men stand in a room all celebrating severing a child) and backward, the whole notion of it reducing risk of illness is so minimal it's a joke.

Is essential for some boys when problems occur

When all the adults involved in these wonderful ceremonies are lining up alongside the newborn with their legs spread waiting for the scalpel then you might have a point.

But instead we get a load of brainwashed men and women squeaking outside the door saying "ooh, I couldn't possibly go in and watch, it's too upsetting"...

If not wanting to slice lumps off my newborn son means I have Western prejudices then hurrah! I'm bloody happy with them.

This is unbelievable...keeps getting better.
So if someone disagrees with it, it's because they feel they are morally superior. Either that, or they're racist. So I'm racist and morally superior?

I'm actually chuckling now.

You know absolutely nothing about my background, I have had significant exposure to this, I can assure you.

You do realise that this is now just standard practice in the USA and Canada don't you?

Religion has nothing to do with it most of the time.

Also love the notion that you have to have been beaten to within an inch of your life, or in fact murdered before it constitutes child abuse.

Well, given that its a Muslim and Jewish practice of slicing off little boys foreskins that you are deeming as child abuse, from the lofty morally superior heights of your Western prejudices.....

lofty Western prejudice? To not want to harm a baby?

Well if you want to make this a West against the world thing, we do pretty fucking well against many many practices don't we? Marital rape is a crime here, but adultery is not, we don't stone women to death do we?

This is not West/East as many more enlightened and educated Muslims and Jews choose not to do it.

Circumcision:
Looks awful
lessens sexual pleasure

The first is a matter of personal opinion.

As to the second: whose? If the woman's, well, maybe you are able to compare.

If the man's, the only person who could tell us is a man who has sexual experience - preferably with the same woman - before and after, in otherwise identical circumstances (mood, ambience, etc) which is improbable. Not a man circumcised in infancy who cannot know whether it would have been more or less or equally pleasurable if he had not been circumcised.

'Looks awful' is a cultural preference. I thought uncircumcised looked awful until I got used to it.

'Lessens sexual pleasure', I think that's subjective as well. I mean, American men seem to enjoy sex a lot and IME can be quite good at it I certainly never got the impression that they found anything lacking.

There are plenty of good reasons to be against circumcision but these two aren't borne out in the American experience, I would wager.

^Well, given that its a Muslim and Jewish practice that you are deeming as child abuse, from the lofty morally superior heights of your Western prejudices"

Of course. Why should religious fairy tales provide any justification?

oh x-post Andrew

I really think sexual pleasure is down to many more factors. I've certainly been with European men who didn't enjoy sex much at all.

Andrew. Studies may want to disagree with you regarding keratinisation of the glans. Stands to reason that a permanently exposed glans will not be as sensitive as a covered one.

Andrew a former boyfriends brother had to have this done as an adult. He remained with the same partner before and after, and had real trouble generally acclimatising to his lack of sheath after the procedure. He maintained it never felt the same after. This was a 20 year old male who had it done for medical reasons.

Don't be pedantic about it (mood, ambience) it's awfully silly to suggest that a man wouldn't realise a physical difference unless all these things remained the same and my guess is you're a man.

Yes, I realise that is just one person and so anecdotal.
Just answering your question that's all.

Damn -- circumcision as an adult is much more problematic

Posies -- I would not assume a slightly less sensitive penis means you get much less sexual pleasure. Surely sexual pleasure is about much more than that?

Can't understand any loving parent watch their child get sliced, and some aren't even brave enough to watch.

Still this topic has been done to death. FWIW any parent that puts their child through this, without medical necessity, is guilty of an act of abuse.

Dreaming. Are you saying that a physical reduction of sensitivity in an area with over 20000 receptors is not relevant to a man's sexual pleasure?

The WHO has recently done studies of thousands of men circumcised in adult age and found that circumcision does not lessen sexual pleasure at all. It's another urban myth.

Nah, what's priceless is comparing the practice to suttee and honour killings. Clearly on a par

I didn't say it was on a par as you well know (assuming you can read and digest)

I was pointing out that just because something has been for 'a millenia' by religious people, it doesn't make it right.

But carry on reading and twisting people's words if it make the thread more interesting for you