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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be dreadfully sad that in the 21st century child abuse seems to be part of the culture in a so-called modern, progressive and enlightened country like the USA

353 replies

Perriwinkle · 20/11/2011 22:39

I've been watching a lot of American baby programmes on satellite TV lately and have been horrified and saddened to see how many parents, who appear to be loving, caring, very protective parents who are determined to everything right by their children, have their sons circumcised in hospital just before they bring them home.

These parents then get stressed and worried when these babies are what they describe as "fussy" (which I've gathered seems to mean a collection of things such as not feeding/sleeping/settling well and crying a lot). Clearly these poor babies are in huge discomfort, due to the barbaric and hugely invasive and unnecessary procedure that's been carried out on them.

When the parents are talking to camera about their early experiences of parenthood, how it has made them feel and what their hopes are for the future, they are all full of wanting to do the best for their child, to love, cherish and protect them and about being the best parents they possibly can for their child. This seems to be so at odds with giving consent for that child to have its genitals mutilated just a day or two earlier.

One woman I saw was talking about how she was in pieces when her son had to "get his first shots" as she called it (injections I assume?) yet she said nothing about his circumcision. I know that the vast majority have it done because when you see them changing nappies you know they have had it done because they have big wadge of gauze there to protect the wound site and you often hear them saying they have to be careful due to the circumcision. If only these parents could be educated to see that it is not in their child's best interests to have him circumcised, rather than thinking it is.

I really can't believe that this practice is still carried out as routinely and widely as it is in the USA even though there is no medical justification for it and no sound evidence to justify that it is in any way beneficial or more hygenic than leaving the baby intact.

What a shame that in many cases such clearly educated and rational people, who do not appear to have any religious imperative to carry out this barbaric practice are still doing this to their children in their droves. It means that millions of children are being subjected to this abusive practice on a daily basis in the USA.

Surely with proper education and information this could be turned around and this vile practive wiped out? I know having it done due to a religious imperative is a whole different argument but surely if non Jewish and Islamic people were properly informed and enlightened on the subject surely the incidence of this completely unneccessary abusive practice could be drastically reduced and in time eschewed by the overwhelming majority of parents?

I understand that routine non ritual circumcision was once a feature of many cultures but that it has successfully died out due to education and enlightenment. Wouldn't it be lovely to think the same could happen in the USA?

OP posts:
DamnBamboo · 21/11/2011 00:09

Prima where you expecting an intelligent response to your post?

ItWasABoojum · 21/11/2011 00:10

The racism argument is bollocks, sorry. If anything, it's racist to suggest that something shouldn't be changed just because people from another culture think it's okay - that to me suggests that certain cultures are so primitive that they are exempt from criticism because they just don't know any better. I will argue with any Muslim or Jew who defends circumcision, just as I will argue with any Christian who still believes in 'spare the rod and spoil the child'.

Besides, it's not like the practice is universally accepted even by those for whom it forms part of a tradition: www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Moominsarescary · 21/11/2011 00:15

My son was circumcised due to medical reason, after the discomfort and pain he went through I will never understand why people do it for any other reason than medical

WilsonFrickett · 21/11/2011 00:16

Those of us who have had to have our sons circumcised for medical reasons would probably prefer to debate the issues about their future sexual health in slightly less emotive language. Just sayin....

Whatmeworry · 21/11/2011 00:16

It's fucking pathetic calling people who think it's wrong racist!

Its both ignorant and incredibly arrogant to think that calling a practice that Jews and Muslims have done for millenia - without, it must be noted, any damage to their menfolk or socieities - "child abuse" and "barbaric", and wanting to make it illegal, is not racist.

This whole thread is just covert racism by the back door. It's not PC to attack Jews and Muslims, so lets have a go at circumcision and make it illegal instead and make them pariahs in the "Liberal" West.

Way to go.....

ItWasABoojum · 21/11/2011 00:23

So is it also racist to be against female genital mutilation? Foot binding? Suttee? Take that argument to its logical conclusion and you can excuse anything on cultural grounds. We only progress as a species by questioning the things we have done for millennia and moving on from them where appropriate.

Whatmeworry · 21/11/2011 00:26

The racism argument is bollocks, sorry. If anything, it's racist to suggest that something shouldn't be changed just because people from another culture think it's okay - that to me suggests that certain cultures are so primitive that they are exempt from criticism because they just don't know any better

Oh wow.

I rest my case......

ItWasABoojum · 21/11/2011 00:33

Er - what? I'd suggest you read that post again.

WorraLiberty · 21/11/2011 00:47

IMO wanting to make a practice illegal that has been done for millenia by Muslims and Jews is just a form of racism and intolerance

Really?

I call it child protection.....

'Honour' killings have been performed for millenia in some countries when (usually) a young lady dares to leave an abusive 'chosen' husband.

But how terribly racist to think it's wrong for a family to torture and kill someone who wants to be divorced.

Just what are we thinking in this stupid civilised world we live in?

troisgarcons · 21/11/2011 03:52

articles.cnn.com/2009-03-26/health/healthmag.circumcision.hpv.herpes_1_circumcised-men-circumcision-rates-hpv-infection?_s=PM:HEALTH

In the new study, a research team at the Rakai Health Sciences Program in Uganda in collaboration with researchers from the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland, and Makerere University in Uganda conducted two clinical trials involving 3,393 uncircumcised men ages 15 to 49. All the men were negative for HIV and genital herpes (also known as herpes simplex virus type 2); a subgroup of men also tested negative for HPV.

Roughly half of the men underwent medically supervised circumcision at the start of the trial, while the other half were circumcised two years later

Overall, circumcision reduced the men's risk of genital herpes by 28 percent (10.3 percent of uncircumcised men developed genital herpes compared with 7.8 percent of circumcised men) and HPV infection by 35 percent (27.8 percent of uncircumcised men were infected with HPV compared with 18 percent of circumcised men). Circumcision did not, however, protect against syphilis. (About 2 percent of men in both groups contracted syphilis.)

Primafacie · 21/11/2011 04:23

Troisgarçons, circumcision is also endorsed by WHO in Africa as it has been shown to reduce HIV transmission by 60%. WHO's position

DamnBamboo, not from you, no :o - I was just trying to defuse the mass hysteria that engulfs AIBU whenever circ is mentioned. Which, sadly, is about once a month at the moment.

troisgarcons · 21/11/2011 04:29

Well it's commonplace in the USA, more of a best practice rather than cultural or religious given the highest pergentage are of white christian origin.

Whether you agree with it or not - and i cant say I've given it much thought - the incidence of HPV is much reduced in circumcised males. We are of course now jabbing our daughters with HPV to protect them but boys aren't being innoculated (there is also a male HPV vaccine) Why is that?

RealLifeIsForWimps · 21/11/2011 05:14

You could just stick a condom on your dick instead

StealthPenguin · 21/11/2011 06:57

Can I just say, it's better to be circumcised for things like hygiene, ease, and it also stops a medical condition my DP has, where the eye of the skin is so small the head of the penis can't exit completely.

I think it's preferable, it makes things much nicer from an aesthetic point of view, and it's no worse than piercing a young babies ears, IMHO.

Also, YABVVVVVVVU since you are whining about something that is a religious choice. Do you also bitch and complain about the African Tribespeople who stretch their pierce-holes so that their lobes dangle down? Or are you only complaining about circumcision because it's in "civilized" society?

Each to their own, but you're being bloody unreasonable about it. And there are 6 million threads on here with this issue.

Speaking of, I think I have a full house! BINGO!

StealthPenguin · 21/11/2011 07:10

And FGS - it's a completely useless flap of skin. It's not comparable to female circumcision (which is vascular!) and honour killings! ?God, some people can overreact. If you don't agree with it, don't do it to your child but YABU if you think it will make the slightest difference. People will believe what they choose, and to argue against that is just like talking to a brick wall.

Whatmeworry · 21/11/2011 07:13

Speaking of, I think I have a full house! BINGO!

Have we done bf/ff this month? I think it may be premature exhilaration :o

Moominsarescary · 21/11/2011 07:14

Agree with rlifw I don't even know if my son is aware being circumcised reduces his risk of catching some sti's, I won't be telling him either he should still wear a condom

StealthPenguin · 21/11/2011 07:22

WhatMeWorry - yeah, technically.

There was a thread basically stating as absolute fact that anyone over the age of 50 will abhorr breastfeeding, and will give you lip for it inbetween changing incontinence pads.

Now that one was funny.

TartyMcFarty · 21/11/2011 07:34

What a shame - I can't read this thread. because the shoutiness of the first couple of pages makes it a bore. It's interesting though - OP, could you start it again as a new thread with disclaimers?

troisgarcons · 21/11/2011 07:35

My own DH is curcumcised and the exterior of his penis is rough and weathered - not at all as nature intended it to be

Quote of the day so far. a leathery old knob is now in my minds eye. Hmm

Andrewofgg · 21/11/2011 07:41

Just to be clear: is anybody saying that in the UK it should be illegal for Jewish and Moslem parents to have their sons circumcised according to the traditions of their respective religions?

If so say so and let's have a right royal bunfight . . .

Let me add something about the motivation of non-observant Jewish parents. In every generation there are some Jewish men - in this context I obviously only mean men - who give up some or all of the traditions associated with being Jewish such as keeping the Sabbath or not eating pig - and others who go back to them. If you are not observant when your son is born the thought will be there that if he chooses to "return to the fold" in adult life the journey will be a great deal easier and less painful if he is circumcised in infancy!

Primafacie · 21/11/2011 07:48

Andrew, yes that is exactly what some posters are saying.

Pendeen · 21/11/2011 08:29

"... ^I think it's preferable, it makes things much nicer from an aesthetic point of view, and it's no worse than piercing a young babies ears, IMHOV ..."

Priceless.

Pendeen · 21/11/2011 08:30

"... I think it's preferable, it makes things much nicer from an aesthetic point of view, and it's no worse than piercing a young babies ears, IMHOV ..."

Priceless.

Whatmeworry · 21/11/2011 08:42

Nah, what's priceless is comparing the practice to suttee and honour killings. Clearly on a par.....