To think someone saying your hair is exotic & wanting to touch it is not racist?

[BoobleBeep]

I'm wondering about this, I have tried to link the articale by Hannah Pool in Grazia but can't find it online.

It was an article on casual racism in the UK and she cited an incident where she had been in the womens toilets and a white women had said how beautiful and exotic her hair was and asked if she could touch it (whilkst reaching out and touching it), Hannah Pool said no you can't and teh women said she was rude.

I lived in Japan for years and had blonde hair back then. Lots of people saidhow exotic my hair was and people liked to touch it sometimes, it didn't bother me at all. My daughter is mixed race and has gorgeous very thick black hair and I love touching it as it is so different to my own.

Karma - you really are a piece of work.

"As things stand, that's my view. I don't see that black people are more likely to be poor than white people. Perhaps in the past, but not now."

Care to find some figures to back up 'your view'? Or refute the figures that wholly negate 'your view' that other people have had the decency to provide?

It's my view that the earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese. Therefore ... it is! Wow - that was easy!!

Spero - yeah, you're right, black people just need to get a better sense of humour about it all; it's just banter and havin' a larf, innit? Like when my arse gets pinched at work for the 5th day running, or my boobs get groped, I really should just laugh it off with the people doing it, not be pissed off or annoyed in anyway. What was I thinking?!

Slinking, maths is not my strong point, but those figures are calculated from a median. Presumably that means they've taken the very top income in society and the very bottom and extrapolated their figures based on what's in the middle. I think that makes 'average' higher than it really is for the majority of the population, so I'm not totally sure about findings based on those figures. Unless they've discounted the top %, which skew the figures. But I might be wrong there, because I am crap at maths.

From that link, poor white boys perform worse than anyone else. They are presumably not subject to racism, so therefore there must be other factors at play too.

We all get the same educational opportunities (at a state level) and there are laws to prevent discrimination at work, so I don't see how it can't be a level playing field.

I think that what makes the most difference is money and job opportunity where you live.

i worked in the city for years of course the companies employed those from ethnic minorities but in management, in front facing roles not often. jsut becasue the laws are in place does not mean that companies treat everyone equally if they did there would be far more women in management too

I agree completely with Karmabeliever.

I think too much is attributed to racism, when actually race has nothing to do with it.

Until we have exactly the same numbers of black, white, Asian and every other race all living in this country at the same time, we can't really compare rates of employment and wealth accurately.

There probably are more rich white people in this country than there are rich black people, but then lots of that wealth, and the opportunities and prospects that come with it, are down to inheritances. Minority groups that have only been in this country for one or two or even three generations are not going to have had the same chance at building that wealth as people whose families go back many many genarations in this country.

That is down to geography, not race.

I think that people are too quick to claim racial discrimination, when it has nothing to do with it. A black person will have the law on their side if they say that they have not been offered a job because of their race, when in fact they may not have been offered a job for countless other reasons. A white person doesn't have that protection, or the option to shout about discrimination and then get the law on side.

Employers end up scared of being accused of racism, and then positively discriminate in favour of of black or Asian people. How can that be right?

I think in the city, the rich elite keep all the best jobs for other members of the rich elite. I wouldn't disagree with you that many companies in the city are discriminatory.

'A black person will have the law on their side if they say that they have not been offered a job because of their race, when in fact they may not have been offered a job for countless other reasons.'

Hahahaha. On what planet?

Look, unless an employer stupidly comes out and says 'I'm not hiring you because you're black' it is nearly impossible to prove discrimination and nobody will pursue it.

So Karma are you saying that racism doesn't exist anymore, has been totally done away with?

I agree with you, what makes the most difference to your quality of living, is money and class. But are you seriously suggesting that within the class, area, socio-economic group you are living, there is no more racism, sexism, homophobia, disablism etc.? Just having money has erased those problems?

Because that is what you sound as if you are arguing. But you're not, are you? Am trying to understand what you are saying here.

Karma, aa a previous poster mentioned, discrimination is extremely difficult to prove. Pursuing a claim for discrinination can also be very costly and time consuming, which means that many people choose not to pursue a claim. Employment Laws are not the panacea to discrimination in the workplace.
Whether you believe it or not, racism, sexism and prejudice DO exist.

To all those people who keep saying that Exotic is a compliment .. or worse that it means foreign. Well if you feel that telling someone that they are foreign is a compliment then you just go on right ahead and carry on. Plenty of people are 2nd or 3rd generation Brits and do not appreciate being termed foreign or being described with a word that should be retained for fruit or birds. I don't personally wish to be described in the same way that you would describe a peacock, but hey, that's just me.

If somebody considers themselves to be British why on earth should they continually wish someone to be pointing out that they are "from another country"?? They are not "foreigners" they are British. I don't understand why people can't see this. Do you go around telling 2nd generation people of Polish descent that they are exotic? No. Hence the racial undertones of the word.

I also doubt very much that two black women would sit there telling each other how exotic they both look. Therefore to me anyone using the word is pointing out that the otherness of the other person, pointing that they are different to the speaker and therefore by default describing themselves as the norm (and yes displaying a kind of patronising, power-kick). That is why it could be interpreted as racism whether they meant it that way or not. Sorry but this is Britain in 2011, there is no norm and if that upsets you then so be it.

Just as people who wish to keep on using the word are perfectly entitled to use it, they obviously must be prepared to accept that if they use the word then they will or may be categorised by the recipient of the "compliment" as a bit dim at best or at the very worst as racist. I certainly would not go out of my way to become bosom buddies with someone who chose to use this word to me or be particularly respectful of what else they may have to say. OOh dear my prejudices are coming out here.. terrible eh??

People do not like being othered - just as the gender of someone should be irrelevant in the workplace. I would no more expect someone to tell me I am exotic, than I would expect a man to tell me I am beautiful in the workplace. Both practices are patronising and inappropriate IMHO.

Warrant there us a difference between race and nationality. You could have five generations of family having lived in Britain and still sport Afro hair or dark skin. Exotic isn't a word I like but it doesn't bring offence to my ears.

Oh and compliments in terms of the eastern Europeans are limited. ... Usually because a shot putters jaw and build are less favourable to some in favour of long Asian hair.

Accept that race and nationality are different. Brought nationality into it because someone earlier felt that use of the word exotic is not derogatory simply because it is used to denote "foreign". Whether someone arrived in the country last week or their family has been here 5 generations though I think that certain words are inappropriate in some contexts hence my gender and workplace analogy. I feel that in most cultures describing people as foreign displays a kind of generalised zenophobia. I would not say that "foreign" woman down the road I would say that woman from [insert nationality] if it was relevant to the conversation. If it wasn't I wouldn't feel the need to mention it.

Brilliant posts Warrant....

I wouldn't be offended if someone called me exotic.

But it's not up to me to decide if other people are allowed to be offended, is it? Just because I'm not offended, doesn't mean that anyone else is unreasonable to be offended.

I think it's inappropriate to ask to touch a grown woman's hair as if she's some sort of doll.

When people look at people who look as if they are foreigners because of their skin colour or language or the fact that their parents or grandparents immigrated here, they see them as exotic and that is not wrong. They are exotic. Having said that does not make me a racist. I am a white English realist with a very good friend whose parents came from Jamaica. so what does that make her? Yes, exotic.

I think someone trying to defend the use of the word Exotic actually pointed out in the clearest way possible what is wrong with it

And yes back to the hair-touching and blond kids examples. This is an adult patting a kids head, because they feel that they can because they are the adult .. they are the kids "superior" in a way. In same way a white woman asking to touch a black woman's hair is denoting some sense of entitlement to touch her hair because she innately feels superior

Agree with Warrant's comment about the hair touching of a black woman's hair denoting some sense of entitlement.

When did I ever suggest people should laugh about racism?? Boggle.

I thought the bt3a thread really interesting because of the real upset and unease it caused many of the posters.

If you think I was posting it to say tee hee racism can be funny then I suggest you are a person who enjoys getting on her high horse rather than engaging her brain.

Exotic = foreign. I'm 2nd generation English. I don't get called exotic because I'm white. If I were black would my children's children be called exotic as a 'compliment' by the children of white immigrants?

I don't think it means that the woman felt superior. Sometimes people see something beautiful and want to touch it. In this case, it was someone else's hair Now, personally, I think it's odd to not realise that this oversteps another person's physical boundaries and it's certainly very rude and invasive to not take no for an answer. Some people don't take no for an answer, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they feel superior on race grounds.

That woman was just an odd ball.

Hands off my hair! It's my hair! It's my hair! Ask me and then WAIT for me to say yes or no maybe. And then respect my wishes.

Racist? Could be. I'd take the author's word for it that if it felt like racism then it probably was. Discrimination on the basis of race right? Positive stereotypes are still stereotypes.

The superiority expressed, is a patronising feeling . The
white woman would probably be mortified to be called racist, she probably thought that she had done her bit for racial intergration. However, what she does not realise is that she was treating the black female as a pet, something that is cute and fluffy.

But do you not think that someone like that would be the same, whoever she was dealing with? Some people are just weird, with no concept of boundaries.

Karma...possibly she could be the same to others. However the 'victim' of the hair toucher happened to be black.

My point forehead was I get sick and tired of people pulling the racist card at the drop of a hat. I also wanted to point out that as a white English person I have also experienced different nationalities being totally vile to me due to my colour.