To think someone saying your hair is exotic & wanting to touch it is not racist?

[BoobleBeep]

I'm wondering about this, I have tried to link the articale by Hannah Pool in Grazia but can't find it online.

It was an article on casual racism in the UK and she cited an incident where she had been in the womens toilets and a white women had said how beautiful and exotic her hair was and asked if she could touch it (whilkst reaching out and touching it), Hannah Pool said no you can't and teh women said she was rude.

I lived in Japan for years and had blonde hair back then. Lots of people saidhow exotic my hair was and people liked to touch it sometimes, it didn't bother me at all. My daughter is mixed race and has gorgeous very thick black hair and I love touching it as it is so different to my own.

Karma, you said:

"In this country we are largely on a level playing field. All people face some kind of discrimination and I think the primary factor is poverty, in determining how well your life goes in today's society."

That is utter bollocks;.

Race is intrinsically related to poverty. Black people are more likely to be poor and to have poor economic outcomes. Black males do disproportionately badly in school, black people are more likely to be harassed by the police. All that has a knock on effect on poverty.

Presumably you are not arguing that black people are more stupid than white people so you have to surely accept that there is discrimination at play here. If not, what is it about?

For the people at the back who seem to be having an inordinate amount of trouble getting their heads around all of this...

No-one is saying you cannot use the word 'exotic' at all anymore. I will still refer to exotic fruit, locations, whatever. I'm just never going to use it in relation to people because it carries negative connotations. And my need to use it no matter what is not so great that it overrides any possible offence it might cause.

Where I come from, the word Oriental is no longer used. It's antiquated and, again, carries negative connotations. When I lived in the UK however, people used it freely much to my

Black slaves used to refer to themselves as n***s. Anyone read Gone With The Wind? But the passing of time rendered the word offensive.

This is what happens to an evolving language in a caring, civilised society.

But by all means, be the last one on the boat, the dinosaur still using a word which you know the people you're sometimes using it about do not like, just because you're entitled to, and that's more important than anything else.

In this country we have laws to protect people from discrimination, be that race discrimination or gender discrimination etc. If you are discriminated against at work, for example, then the laws are in place to help you get that put right. In that sense we are on a level playing field. No one is allowed to discriminate on race/gender/sexuality grounds.

However, this is not perfect. When I say that all people face discrimination, I am thinking about,for example, how women are often held back because there is not affordable, easily accessible child care available for all. Of course, it is illegal to discriminate against a woman because she has a child or is pg, but society is geared in such a way that often it happens without a law necessarily being broken.
Disabled people face discrimination all the time, because they don't have all the same opportunities as everyone else. But often no law is actually being broken. It's just about how society is.

Poverty is a determining factor in how well your life goes, because money gives you choice and opportunity. A rich, black person, will have a better life than a poor white one in the UK. If race was the sole determining factor, that wouldn't be the case.

I think in schools the current worst achievers are poor, white boys. The way things are here at the moment I think lots of people will have a poor economic outcome, whether black or white.

Sozzled: 'Surely this is how we move forward.'

Yes, exactly.

And I do think it's getting better. In the US at least, each generation is way less racist than the one before it.

I read that article and at the time I remember thinking that it was a bit OTT TBH, and dare I say, oversensitive. I would take it as a compliment, I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable with a stranger touching my hair but still...

dreaming, I think it is maybe not right for us to be comparing the UK and USA. They are so different, and I think the common language and shared popular culture makes us forget sometimes.

Deadsouls - what race are you, out of interest?

Karma - I'm sorry, but it does really read, rather embarrassingly so, as if you're downplaying the existence of racism; the ongoing problem of racism.

Do you not see at all how this might be perceived as arrogant?

And yes, poverty is a determining factor, but surely you can see how overall black people might be more susceptible to it than white? Of course a rich black person will have a better life...! But black people are proportionately less likely to be in that position.

Well I'm not really comparing them. Aren't we talking about racism generally? I think there are enough similarities to share insights from each culture. I keep trying to say 'in the US' where I think there may be distinctions.

If it were all about class, not race, then rich black people would not experience racism. But that's obviously not the case (in the US and the UK both, just to be clear).

so a few white people have been called names, as a white person you are not going to have to prove yourself, you are not going to be treated with suspicion, you are not judged on the colour of your skin and if you behave in a certain way it will not be down to you being white

i am mixed race (asian) but people never guess usually think spanish i have not received any form of racism apart from a few white bitch remarks and i have travelled and lived in an arab country, course they thought i was loose but that was easily dealt with they were trying their luck. i have though felt anger and hurt regarding the racism that has been thrown toward my family and the worse remarks are i do not like asians but your family are ok

the only time i have really felt uncomfortable was years ago at a party i was the only non black girl and i was not welcome by most - made me realise what many have had to deal with day in day out

its naive to believe that racism is not still part of our society, thankfully we are becoming less tolerant of it but do not think just because you have been called a white bitch you can understand how it feels because i do not believe that you do

Angel When people look at people who look as if they are foreigners because of their skin colour or language or the fact that their parents or grandparents immigrated here, they see them as exotic and that is not wrong. They are exotic

Foreign FFS? Have you looked around you? You don't see what is wrong with this sentence?

dreaming, it is not only about class or poverty, but for me they are the key factors in determining how well life turns out on the whole. I don't deny that these things happen - you will get nasty people everywhere.

Slinking, if I've said anything that is factually incorrect then I'll apologise and attempt to put it right. As things stand, that's my view. I don't see that black people are more likely to be poor than white people. Perhaps in the past, but not now.

Not being rude, but am bowing out of this thread now. Dh has just returned from a work trip away and like a total pita will expect me to talk to him instead of you lot. Didn't just want to bugger off in the middle of a conversation. Goodnight all

Karma: - from the last site I linked to (poverty.org.uk)

Two-fifths of people from ethnic minorities live in low-income households, twice the rate for White people.
A quarter of working-age Bangladeshi, Black Caribbean and Black African households are workless.

Still stand by this statement?
" I don't see that black people are more likely to be poor than white people. Perhaps in the past, but not now."

Poverty rates:

The income poverty rate varies substantially between ethnic groups: Bangladeshis (65%), Pakistanis (55%) and black Africans (45%) have the highest rates; black Caribbeans (30%), Indians (25%), white Other (25%) and white British (20%) have the lowest rates.

For all ages, family types and family work statuses, people from minority ethnic groups are, on average, much more likely to be in income poverty than white British people.

The differences are particularly great for families where at least one adult is in paid work: in these families, around 60% of Bangladeshis, 40% of Pakistanis and 30% of black Africans are in income poverty. This is much higher than the 10-15% for white British, white Other, Indians and black Caribbeans.

70% of those in income poverty in inner London are from minority ethnic groups, as are 50% in outer London.

Differences in age, family type and family work status account for around half ? but only half ? of the 'excess' income poverty rates suffered by minority ethnic groups compared with white British people.

www.jrf.org.uk/publications/poverty-rates-among-ethnic-groups-great-britain

And good night

karma you really believe that young black men are given the same opportunities as young white men

i wish it were true but i know that a young black man will still have to prove himself that he is not the stereotype, a young white man does not

maybe you can answer tomorrow :)

It's sad that people are so keen to defend their right to be offensive or wearing to other people. I'm sure you do have that right, but why would you want to?

No one has said that people who are like bulls in the china shop about their own privilege, are in the same category as Stephen Lawrence's murderers, so that's a massive exaggeration and an Aunt Sally both at the same time.

" If someone called me a racist I would be hurt, then very angry. I would certainly stop trying to engage with that person. "

Really? But Hannah Poole didn't call anyone racist, she described the phantom toucher's behaviour as racist. And if a black person told me that my behaviour was racist, yes I might feel a bit defensive about it, but actually, unless the person in question was being hopelessly abusive, drunk or threatening, my primary response would be to wonder why they were saying that. I hope that I would actually listen to them and engage with them, because I don't think that my hurt feelings or momentary anger, are more important than checking my white privilege and trying to understand where a black person telling me my behaviour has been racist, is coming from.

But then, I think that fighting racism is more important than my momentary annoyance at having my privilege pointed out to me.

I don't see there's any point in comparing a rich black man's life in the UK today with a poor white woman's.

To find white privilege, you have to compare that black man with a white man with the same amount of money. To find male privilege, you have to compare that black man with a black woman with the same amount of money. To find able-bodied privilege, you have to compare that black able bodied man with a rich black man with a disability. And so on.

No point comparing apple with pears, it won't tell you anything about group privilege.

I will admit that I have not read the entirety of the thread, but I have to say that if someone came up to me and asked if they could touch my hair WHILST TOUCHING IT! I would be pretty pissed off. I also think that calling a complete stranger exotic to their face is pretty condescending (as someone said at the beginning of the thread, made their friend feel like they were some creature in a zoo) and implies that they are different.

The person may not have considered themselves to be racist, but the fact that they didn't consider it is the problem surely. Are people really that incapable of thinking before they say something?

I think the incident in the toilet sounded like some weird power game - there was patronising in it and racism. The racism part is using the word 'exotic' - it means from outside, other etc. Why didn't she just say 'lovely'. Patronising because she was expecting the answer to be 'of course you can touch my hair ma'am'. Weird because of the offence taken afterwards upon being refused the touch.

Exotic is the kind of word you use to describe a tropical bird/insect/plant/fish, or a 1970s disco outfit. Not somebody's hair in the 21st century.

Nope not faux naive. Making some real points, engage or don't, your choice.

Still questioning how it helps for people like the hair toucher to be called racist.

I thought this was quite interesting b3ta.com/questions/racistgrandparents/

Spero, the hair toucher wasn't called racist.

Her behaviour was.

Like when we refer to a child's behaviour as naughty, not the child.

Pretty basic parenting principle, I never quite understand why people seem not to get it for adults.