to start going to church and praying that DS gets a place at this school?

[ThoughtCriminal]

DS is only 2 but we have already decided which primary school we want him to go to. It is the best school around and although we live only 0.8 mile from the school we are outside the catchment area.

If the school is oversubscribed he will stand a better chance of getting in if a parent worships in a church in membership of Churches Together in Britain and Ireland.

I guess I'd better make a start and get him baptised! I have not attended church since Remembrance Sunday 2 years ago!

Has anyone else ever had to do this to get their DCs into a better school? How did it work out?

Couple of things to consider (went through this last year)

1. you may well find that there's a lot more bone fide Chrstians out there than you think and theyre going to be pretty when you rock up to church with your 2 year old

2. if the school requires a letter from your vicar will you honestly be able to ask them - remember this is a VICAR and let's face it you are trying to swizzle the system

3. you're going to need to go to that church quite a lot to be able to do b)

4. in the case of school we looked at, as with mst cases, first dibs went to kids in care, then siblings, then religion and of that last group non CofE regular worshippers e.g Sikh were also considered.

I can actually see where you're coming from OP, but I'd seriously counsel you to have a back up plan.

"Priority is given to applicants who were baptised with 6 months of birth (3 months for the ultra strict ones) to weed out the likes of yourself, op!
You're already too late."

This is definately not true at our school! The admissions criteria are,
1 - kids in care
2 - siblings
3 - children whos parents attend either St Johns (the CofE Church attached to the school) or the local Baptist Church. The Baptist Church don't baptise babies, which would mean the Baptist children wouldn't be able to attend the local Church school.

churches are about more than a sunday morning service so many 'genuine' christians who can't/won't go to the sunday morning service have plenty of other opportunitites to get involved. being a christian is not about what you do on one morning of the week.

getting a place in a faith school is not about ticking boxes, getting the vicar's signature and being able to say you sat in a church service once a fortnight for 6+months prior to school applications being submitted, but there are plenty of parents who have forced the system to be just that.

OP... Trafford Centre, eh. You must be my neighbour.

I was gobsmacked when I realised that the nearby faith school was almost entirely white while DS's non-faith school is very ethnically mixed. The schools are seconds away from each other.

I find this whole thing revolting. What standard of education my child gets should not be dependent on whether her parents pretend to believe in God. It is just discrimination and it turns my stomach. Religion has no place in school except in teaching them tolerance, culture and history.

If it were any other group in society, would it be acceptable?

And, don't get me started on compulsory religious worship in schools. Yes, I know you can ask for your children to not take part. I was one of the children who used to leave assembly halfway though. It made me feel lovely and included, not singled out at all.

so so wrong. People like you make me angry OP, and I'm an atheist.

OP, you need to check what the school's admission criteria is. Are you sure that distance from the school even comes into it? Usually it is church attendance that really counts (unless the school has more places than applications).

For those who vehemently oppose the practice of going to church just to get a school place, well, of course it would be nicer if those parents would continue to attend the church, but really, since it is so hard to get a place in a good school - can you blame them?

BTW, I very much doubt you need to get into flower arranging or creche-running or any such activities, just attend the services! At the end of the day you go to church to worship, not to arrange flowers You just need a statement from the vicar that you are a regular worshipper.

It IS really hard though...If we stay in our area our nearest school is a CofE school, and a very good one, but as we go to a church in a different area that we have a long-standing commitment to, DDs are unlikely to get a place. We are just out of catchment for most of the other state schools in the area. So all the parents who attend the local church are more likely to get places in the CofE school, even though the assistant priest who we know says he doesn't really know the congregation because people come and go...
oh well.

*1) you may well find that there's a lot more bone fide Chrstians out there than you think and theyre going to be pretty when you rock up to church with your 2 year old

2. if the school requires a letter from your vicar will you honestly be able to ask them - remember this is a VICAR and let's face it you are trying to swizzle the system*

I doubt that anyone is going to be if OP goes to church with her 2yo - most likely people will welcome her and be glad to see another child! And vicars don't cross-examine the worshippers' personal faith! Come on, churches are welcoming places who are glad to see new people come in!

Marianne that is so infuriating. The idea that people might be very strongly affiliated to one church but it's the wrong one for the local school - bloody ridiculous.

Rather than indignation that your child is " being denied the best of state education" as you are not religious, closely followed by demands that all schools become non denominational wouldnt it be better to wonder why religious schools do perform better?

Is equalising down the way really a good idea? Non denominational schools are shit (according to the indignation on here), the solution..........lets make them all shit.

"Shouldn't taxes go to teach all children the same basics?"

I went to a state faith school. "Your" taxes went to my secular education, much like it would if I went to a non-faith state school. My parents paid for my religious education. For those who couldn't afford to pay, they were helped out by the school, not "your" taxes.

I don't think it is the case that non denominational schools are shit but that often the only decent school in an area is a church one and thus out of reach of many people.

We had this so we moved house to an area with 3 good non religious state schools. This is not always an option. There are also good church schools in the area.

Crashdoll, I think the point is that a child whose parents are not religious is denied access to what may be the best school in their catchment purely on this basis.

Is it in any way morally right to admit or not admit a child on the basis of their religion?

I know but that little snippet was bothering me and wanted to clear it up.

I think non-religious people should have to fulfil the same criteria as religious people. The school I went to has now changed. Anyone can go as long as they fulfil the criteria which I think is fairer.

In the country now I would imagine only a small percentage of parents specifically want a faith school for the faith aspect. That option shouldn't be removed, however to limit it to 10% of the intake as purely on faith surely makes sense?

That's only 3 out of a class of 30 but still leaves the option there for those who it is important to

Absolutely shocking. Not that you are doing it but that you even have to. The whole system is so wrong totally agree with Mrs TerryPratchett and Soupdragon

"Is it in any way morally right to admit or not admit a child on the basis of their religion" - to mainly tax payer funded schools! And its not even "their" religion but their parents.

We have Italian students to stay and often talk about education systems - over there even in such a Catholic country the state schools are non religious if you want a religious school you pay for it. They were really surprised to hear how it worked.

We did this. We are both non-religious (although I had my own belief we come from non-churchgoing backgrounds- so were not attending before DS was born). DP definatly an atheist.

Our school is cofe, its a good school, and by far the nearest to us. I looked at admission criteria and started going (and paying a regular contribution each month). DP came along once a month or so.

Although this is how it started for us, we do love the community aspect, and I really enjoy going. So we may not have started as cofe but we consider ourselves so now IYSWIM? So its win-win in my opinion. We still go now DS has a place though that's not compulsary- I dont know if we got in on faith or locality as we are just over the road.

Go for it. As long as you are happy for your child to have a faith education!

There's a gorgeous Catholic secondary I would love my DS to go to, but I'm not Catholic, not anything else either. I try to live my life in a good way, I don't tell lies, or hurt people if I can help it and I believe in God, (but in my own way, not how the Bible tells me to).

I want him to go to this school because it would suit him and it gets amazing GCSE / A Level results.

But I'm not prepared to lie to get him a place there, and starting to go to Church, simply to get a few rungs up the admissions criteria is lying, whether you like to hear that, or not.

montysma many people do this not because the school is better, but simply because it is their local school. If you have 3 local schools, all of which have religious entry criteria, and all the schools are oversubscribed, then the choice is between "getting religion" and going to a school which is nearby, or not get into any local schools and end up at one bloody miles away, or possibly with no school place at all. That is just not right.

Around here "getting religion" is the expected norm - the schools know it, the churches know it, the congregations know it. Because most primary schools select on religious criteria, and most schools (including community ones) are oversubscribed... It's just how it is.

I would also support the idea that faith schools have to have a proportion of places on a community basis - if we have to have them at all.

So, if all your local schools are faith schools (CofE or Catholic generally speaking) and you are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion that worships in their own way, then your kids have to travel miles or risk not getting a place at all? Is that right?

I mean I have enough problem with the system from the point of view of an atheist but I also can't help feeling it seems rather ironic that some people who pretend to worship at church for long enough can get their kids into a faith school and those who genuinely worship and dedicate their lived to their own god, but not in a church, would be denied a place in a local school because they are the wrong faith.

montysmamma when you say this;

*"Rather than indignation that your child is " being denied the best of state education" as you are not religious, closely followed by demands that all schools become non denominational wouldnt it be better to wonder why religious schools do perform better?

Is equalising down the way really a good idea? Non denominational schools are shit (according to the indignation on here), the solution..........lets make them all shit."*

... are you casting judgy and unpleasant dispersions on non religious people? That's how it comes across to me.

Religious people are not superior to non religious people. They do not necessarily perform better academically, nor do they always behave better so why would taking the faith aspect away from schools take the average down to make them all shit?

Around here we are really spoilt for choice () with religious primary schools - CofE, RC and Jewish. The thing the CofE ones have going for them is people can start going to church. RC and Jewish, not so easy...

So yes children of other faiths are excluded and forced to a. buy a house which costs trillions in catchment of a community school or b. travel an awful long way or c. not get a place at all.

Having said that, at church there are people who would let's say be more natural candidates for the local Greek Orthodox, Synagogue or RC outfit... And no-one turns a hair.

I'm with those saying that the system sucks, but that's not the OP's fault and she should feel free to read the admissions protocol in some detail and act accordingly (with the caveat that admissions can change from year to year).

Being C of E is not a special need, the OP has as much moral right to her local state school as anyone.

YANBU. We are going to do it. BUT I will add that I always said we would start going to church when DD was old enough (she is 3 and I am a Christian), so the only thing that has changed is where we will be actually going to church (CoE rather than Methodist), and 50% of the reason is to get her into the really good school it is attached to.

The same things apply to this as apply to temporary flat rentals in the catchment of community schools - it's not illegal, but it is not in the spirit of the system, and lying can never be right, even if you don't agree with the system, surely?

But then shouldn't the church be pleased that people start going to church? That children who might not have had access to a faith school are introduced to the church? Who said 'you can have a Christian school, or you can have a school for Christians, but it can't be both'?

As for the swimmimg pool and the shiny mini bus, well presumably that's because the church, and it's congregation, has added to the budget for running costs provided by the state and raised money themselves to provide these things. So non church goers have no business to want a share of that, surely?

Where faith schools in oversubscribed areas do well (as opposed to villages where almost all schools are CoE) is that ther is a degree of 'natural selection' in the intake. They may get better results but not be better schools. If you only take childen from families who can show up on time on a Sunday morning, and are prepared to do so from either committment to faith or to education then you preclude many of the children from the disorganised families with no committment to anything including the child's schooling!

I can't imagine wanting to say to my DC that I believe in God, when I don't, or telling them that we pretended to be religious to get into the school. And I can't imagine encouraging my child to enter the church for real when I am a non believer. How do you live with this for the whole of their school life?