Teachers - you're 'avvin a laugh aintcha?

[mholdall]

Kids recently had a week off - half term. They were back this week then, guess what - teacher training day. Seriously, what I want to know is this: is there ANY other job in the country where you get:

• 13 paid weeks holiday a year
• Good pay
• Good pension (believe me, you do compared to people who do proper jobs in private sector - if you dont believe me, try it)
• And yet you still need these extra days to do some training. Training for what, exactly? Seriously, for what???? And how am I, as a parent, supposed to factor childcare in here.
• Oh, and you still do nothing but moan about pay, pensions etc
• Rant over

I grew up in a teaching household and I lived with a group of teachers as a student.

I also have a pretty unusual job, which is very comparable to a teachers. Essentially I am permanently based in a special school setting, where I have to plan and deliver lessons, monitor, assess, leve etc. Because I work with a very specific subgroup of students with very complex needs, I also have to differentiate work for mainstream class teachers, which means I have to not only have specialist knowledge about the students that I work with, but I have to be able to design therapy targets around the National Curriculum in collaboration with my teaching colleagues and really we have to all do pretty much exactly the same thing for it to work. The nature of my work is that the core of what I do relates to language and vocabulary so there is immense overlap... we have to jointly plan and because the students are as severe as they are, we also have to jointly deliver. There are few settings like it in the country so I can't be more specific than that.

I'll be honest here, some of my colleagues are worth their weight in gold and if I could erect diamond statues to them I would, no kidding. They take my breath away with their creativity and inspiration and I have nominated some of them for Teacher of the Year awards in the past! Others.. well, not so much so. I have had the experience with some, for example, where we have planned a joint session where the teacher has found something else to do or reneged on their part of the planning. Teachers are human, so are we. There are many of my colleagues in my own profession who are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, so I am ribbing a bit.

If I have scepticism about some of what's said, it's from pretty direct experience. There isn't a lot that a teacher in an SEN setting has to do that I don't have to do etc. Good mainstream teachers I am always a bit in awe of because of the nature of needing to keep on top of EVERYTHING in a class, so I have lots of respect.. but also quite a lot of knowledge as I spend a lot of time in class. I am not speaking from the point of view of someone who doesn't really understand teaching but I am surprised at the pay differential as any of you would be if you found yourselves hearing online that your colleagues that you work day in and day out with were receiving so much more pay than you.

Want to say that again, Feenie? You really feel you "got" me there, didn't you . Hilarious! Who's throwing what out of the pram?

Er.....not really don't have to say it again, it's there for anyone to see.

'Got' you? You are being more than a bit weird, tbh. Are you sure you are feeling alright?

Does it really matter how many hours teachers take to prepare and mark work outside of teaching hours. An efficient teacher might take less time than a less efficient teacher. If teachers do get pain a decent salary it is because they bloody well deserve one. IMO it isn't a big enough salary but there are enough perks to make it worthwhile.

Are you aware that special school teachers get an extra pay point on the spine for working in a special setting? Any that I know are very highly skilled in their work, and are also assaulted on an almost daily basis - it's almost danger money.

You really do have an enormous chip on your shoulder, Working9while5 - if you are so insistent that you do exactly the same as a special school teacher, then why not just stop bellyaching and train as one?

It's there for anyone to see? You reiterated the point three times, so I presumed you must be harping on about it in in case anyone "missed" that you "proved" I only work 9 to 5 . This is all very amusing!

Perhaps that is the issue soverylucky, perhaps I am misreading the pay scales as they may operate differently to ours. 37K is the entry level salary for managers in the NHS (top Band 7, bottom Band 8) so I was surprised. I would be a bit if general teachers were getting this type of salary with unpaid holidays, as it would make the real equivalent hourly something nearer 46K.

It is true also that perhaps NHS pay is poor for what it is, and noblegiraffe has a point about the importance of appropriate renumeration and society generally seeing education for the many as being more important than care for the vulnerable few.

This is all very amusing!

Not really - quite boring actually. 'Proved' you only work 9 to 5? I didn't say that. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

working - much the same could be said for people in any profession - some considerably better-paid than teaching. DH is a solicitor and some of his past colleagues have been shirkers and numpties.

Bellyaching? I'm not bellyaching. I have also said how great many teachers are more times than I can imagine but I have an "immense chip on my shoulder" because I dare to discuss another profession despite having intimate working knowledge of it.

It's hilarious that you would tell me what the dangers of working in a special school are given that I WORK IN ONE face to face with students all week long. I also would have NO idea of the skill level of any of my colleagues, would I??? I am the only professional in my department with an MSc but I guess that really I just haven't spotted how skilled my colleagues are (which is why I say some of them are worth their weight in gold, because really I think they are thick..).

This is my day job. I spend every single hour working alongside teachers and HLTAs, SENCO's and Inclusion Leads and.. of course.. students. I thought that what I was being told on this thread was that teachers were getting 46K full salary a year for doing the job I see them do and I went "Woah, that's a bit of an overpayment". I think if you found out something that suggested that people in your department were being paid so much more than you, you might boggle your eyes too.

But hey, it's just the chip on my shoulder! I like my job, actually. It isn't very safe, though.. because money on jobs like mine is going, we are seen as luxuries. So perhaps I will retrain! I have loads of experience (even taught mainstream in Ireland for a few years with my English degree) so it might be worth considering!

'General teachers getting this type of salary'...well, as my salary is slightly under half what you have quoted (I have only been qualified a few years, and do not teach absolutely full time) I would query whether in general teachers would earn that much...

working9while5 Mon 07-Nov-11 15:02:11
I don't think that teachers have an easy life with minimal stress, I think they are well qualified etc but I don't think that they are working a "pro rata" job that is worth a lot more than they receive into their hand and I think some of the comments about the unpaid holidays really smack a bit of the burning martyr. When people look into careers, they look at the whole package/the lifestyle. The holidays are never paid for, so the salary is really for the whole year round, not an unpaid travesty of injustice.

I am far from a martyr, I have said repeatedly that I do as little as possible during the holidays. I am unpaid for them and therefore I do very little during the breaks. Most of my colleagues work in the same manner.If I had to work more I would want more money, precisely because I not a mug or a martyr. When I looked into teaching I did not know how much it paid tbh as that is not something that motivates me. I did, however, take into account the fact that I would have holidays in which I could be a wife/mother.

Wages are just not about that people are worth but market forces, particularly when the tax payer foots the bill. I am worth what my profession agrees to work for.

I don't think my wage has anything to do with the likelihood of me being assaulted. Rather that I am a highly educated and skilled professional who is playing a vital role in society.

9while5 - you seem very hung up on the holiday thing. Put it like this:

After I had my DTDs, I took maternity leave, then after going back for a bit, decided to resign and take a couple of years out to look after the twins. During that time, I did a few days here and there, at my old school, for which they paid me LA Supply rates. This was my old salary, divided by 195, to give a "daily" rate. This is how LAs pay supply teachers (obviously that doesn't work if schools use agencies, but in this case, they employed me directly) Had I worked every day of the school year, I would have been paid exactly the same as I had for the previous year, but in rather more erratic chunks, depending on which month it was - obviously I would have got zilch in August.

I suppose I could have done another job through the holidays if I wanted to, thereby earning over and above the teaching salary.

I think your constant "so you reckon you're worth 20% more than me?" rant is a bit silly - the holidays ARE unpaid - but that's not a surprise to anyone whose contract reads that they are contracted for 195 days (or 1265 hours) per year. One of the points waaaay up the thread was that teachers should do 9-5, 227 days per year, which is actually 30% more hours than my current contract states. If the government wanted teachers to do 30% contracted hours, then they would have to pay 30% more.

No one is hiding anything here - the contracted hours and the pay scales are all available online, in several different places.

I know Jamie.. and to be honest, I don't really have any axe to grind with teacher salaries really. I just find sometimes on threads like these there can be a bit of halo-polishing going on, so why not join in? I really do have huge respect for teachers in real life, but I remain sceptical that an 80 hour week is the norm throughout a teacher's working life and that if it were it would be a good sign. Some of my most amazing colleagues are hyper-efficient and probably work 45-50 hours a week to be fair, but they don't sell it as though they are doing anything other than what they are paid to do. These threads bring out the competitive "ooh but we get assaulted/it's so tiring/no other job is like it" bull which I don't see from experienced teachers in real life. You see it a lot from junior colleagues just starting out but then they do have to put in the graft in those early years and it is a bit of a shock to the system.

I often do not get the 37K wage for teachers.

I earn around that amount as a teacher at the top of threshold with extra responsibility.

I am not sure I have ever met a teacher who earns 37K for just being a classroom teacher unless they were an AST who also has additional responsibility. They are certainly not getting 46K

FFS if you think it's unfair they get all this time off. No one is stopping anyone from training to be a teacher. If you don't want to be one then stfu complaining.

I'm not telling you the dangers, I asked you if you were aware that they are paid even more than mainstream teachers. I did point out that they earn that as they are a) highly skilled and b)assaulted regularly - something that you claimed to have no knowledge of a few posts back, but are now, of course an expert on.

I told you this because you seem to think your job is essentially the same as theirs and you have said that you are tempted by the money. You have also said that there were no assaults in the two schools you have worked in, and I was making you aware that in many special schools this would not be the case.

Are you always this aggressive when people suggest things you may not be aware of?

And twinklytroll, my experience of working with teachers when I had to work year round was that they were always very apologetic almost about the holidays and "oh poor you" that I had to work on through the Summer, and very respectful of it as I was of them not working. I don't really believe teachers think they are worth 20% more but some of what is written by some teachers in response to threads like this does induce a bit of eye-rolling. If a teacher said to me as they headed off on their hols, "well, it is UNPAID you know" I would think they were being bloody rude and disrespectful of my role but it would not be something that would happen, would it? Just as it would be rude if I said in response "So you are worth 20% more than me, then?". And so it is only the same here.. I think it is a bad argument to have with people in other jobs, it engenders a lack of respect for teachers and it is why my mother, as a teaching union official, CRINGES when she sees teaching colleagues engage in justifying it outside of the profession. She thinks it reflects poorly on teachers and yes, what you should say is I get my pay because I have the skills to do it, the kids need the break and it is a great perk for me that there are these holidays but overall the job is stressful, demanding and requires a huge amount of skill, patience and perseverance.

It's hilarious that you would tell me what the dangers of working in a special school are given that I WORK IN ONE face to face with students all week long

Hilarious? I was going by your OWN post, Working9while5:

I work in two inner city deprived schools and there has never been an assault against a teacher in the 7 years I've been there..

working - I think it's because teachers are so exposed to criticism - unlike professionals in the NHS (OT's, SALT's, Physio's, Clinical Psychs). Many people have children and many people have an opinion about teachers, based on very little information. And there isn't the comfort of a huge salary to make up for that, unlike other maligned professions - GP's, solicitor.

I am not a teacher, BTW, I am a specialist TA who used to be an NHS professional

Feenie, I said in the mainstream there were no assaults actually... but I can't go too much into details.

I've actually said a lot of pretty reasonable things with the odd inflammatory comment just to rise people in response to some of the more personal attacks... it's AIBU, it's supposed to engender a bit of robust debate. There was certainly nothing intended as "aggression" though I wonder if the same could be said when I am asked to STFU.

As will be apparent, I can't ACTUALLY retrain as a teacher within the lifespan of the thread and as I have said I think it would be worth considering, it seems a bit of a moot point for posters to continue mentioning it.

I know, twinkly, I've just looked up the pay scales.

The absolute maxiumum for a classroom teacher at the top of threshold on the current scales is around £31k, so every teacher qualified for less than 6 years earns less than that, and critically no-one earns more UNLESS they take on more responsibilty or pass threshold (which plateaus out again after a few years at just under £36K).

So a 'normal' classroom teacher, however long qualified, earns a maximum of just over £31k (a newly qualified one earns about £10k less, going up in increments for 6 years).

Someone who has taken on additional responsibilities can earn a bit more (but still just below £37k).

Only with more management responsibilities, assistant headship etc do higher salaries become reachable - so the 'average salary of a normal teacher' MUST mathematically be much lower than £37k.

Investment bankers earn lots more money than teachers! Binmen probably earn less. So what? I'm not sure why these comparisons are even being made. Some jobs are better paid than others. It's not exactly a revelation to anyone is it? Now we've got that little bombshell out the way! Can we work out what is so amazing about the fact that teachers would earn even more if they worked over the holidays?

And to the OP, I know it's a total PITA about school holidays and inset days when you are a working parent. Been there! My eldest started school 10yrs ago so I had plenty of experience before DH started teaching again. But as I am sure has been mentioned on this thread, teachers aren't childminders. They are there to teach kids not enable parents to work.

The 'unpaid' argument comes from people who accuse teachers of not working in the holidays. Aside from the fact that lots of teachers do, the usual stock answer is 'would you work through your holidays?' and 'Of course I don't - I am not paid for them'.

Again, it's a reaction to people complaining about teachers' pay and conditions. But you seem to want to make it a personal slur against you, working9while5.