A bit out there but AIBU in my opinion on Pub sector pensions/striking

[mrskeithlemon]

Ok, so I am of the opinion that we are in the midst of a global recession, and that just because you chose to work in the public sector, it does not make you more important than private sector workers. Therefore I think the pension cuts are justified (armed forces aside) if we are to move on to a brighter future as a whole country. I think everybody has to suck up the fact that we are all affected by the recession and public sector or not, we are all going to take a hit

FruitSalad, public sector pensions are final salary pensions, a benefit denied to pretty well all other workers.

My private pension (money purchase, ie, no guarantees) was raided by Gordon Brown when he was first Chancellor and started taxing dividends in pension plans. I don't remember any public sector workers voicing any objections then: people like me were considered fair game: self-employed, no employer contributions.

I don't earn much and paying into pension is a big effort each month. Why should I feel sorry for public sector workers?

It is not "a race to the bottom". Many healthcare workers are poorly paid and overworked compared to the equivliently qualified people in other sectors.

Be careful what you wish for - if you pay peanuts you'll get monkeys. All the decent staff will vote with their feet.

Points not directed at you, after first line, FruitS.

World leaders, Nobel-prize winning economists and leading businesspeople support the Robin Hood Tax. I suspect they know what they are talking about.

Yes, I realised that Abra1d, thank you.

We are in the same position - private sector, by no means wealthy and with no huge perks. We will have a save money for our old age on our own ( with some employer contributions). I don't think we are unfortunate, or that it would be a 'race to the bottom' to put public sector workers in the same position. It's just the way it is. Who else will pay for me if I don't?

"stop being such a martyr, this attitude is what irritates me. You work in the public sector by choice." A choice based on what I believed to be the deal which is now being changed. I believed that earning less up front would mean no worry about retirement. I chose this NOT comparatively low wages then a crappy retirement.

BTW, I also feel that people are suffering terribly in the low-paid sector of private employment. Don't get me wrong, I don't think low paid private sector workers should pay for me. I just wish everyone would stop behaving as if nurses, teachers, Police officers and Social Workers were grabbing, money-hungry arseholes. That would be the rich people who mortgaged ALL our futures so they could have helicopters and Ferraris. Then go on about how hardworking they are.

I entirely agree that there is a top earnings sector of society that does not seem to be experiencing any kind of financial hardship at all. And that doesn't seem quite fair when so many are finding life so very tough.

I am on the old NHS pension system (the most generous one) and yet my income on retirement will still be less than 8k a year. Not exactly amazing is it?
I support the action - if you are employed under certain conditions then those shouldn't be snatched away (either in the public or private sector).
If you really want to see generous pensions then take a look at what MPs enjoy in retirement.......far more than my "under 8k a year" (which they'd like me not to have) I think you'll find.

Nice in theory, but only works in practice if every other country does the same. Good luck trying. I'm sure plenty of countries would love to see the UK do this

'At the G20 this week, a growing group of G20 countries from South Africa to Brazil backed the Robin Hood Tax, and the link between the Robin Hood Tax and fighting poverty and climate change became clearer than ever. Momentum is building and leaves leaders like David Cameron who opposed the tax looking increasingly isolated having sided not with the 99% suffering the effects of the economic crisis, but the interests of a privileged few in the financial sector.

As expected, Bill Gates presented an excellent report calling for a 'Robin Hood Tax' on financial transactions to raise much-needed money for poor countries struggling to cope with the economic crisis and climate change. Bill Gates's report is a game changer - it shows that a tax is both feasible and desirable but crucially that countries can no longer hide behind the excuse that financial transaction taxes needs to be global to work.

Whilst G20 leaders could have gone further, this is far from the end. Events in recent days, with Mr Gates' call being supported by G20 members from France, Germany, Argentina, South Africa and Brazil and by senior figures from the Archbishop of Canterbury to Jeff Sachs, it is clear that momentum is building behind an idea whose time has come.

David Cameron remains one of the key blockers in the international process with even the USA and Russians moving, so it?s vital we keep up the pressure on the UK government ahead of EU talks next week and UN climate talks in South Africa in December. And here in the UK, as the economy fails to pick up and cuts to public services continue to hit ordinary people, we need to keep the pressure on Cameron ? this is Plan B. '

robinhoodtax.org/latest/g20-verdict

Remember this when Cameron is banging on about how the cuts are necessary. And how we're all in it together.

When I worked for the DSS (Department of Social Security as it was back then), my pension was paid for me by the government.

I now work in the NHS and I contribute to my pension.

Vev - I've worked there nearly 25 years and have always contributed to my pension. MoD before that and I contributed there too.

Giraffe - France will be backing the tax because it will impact on London. You should also factor in that the UK is one of only a few countries that meets it's commitment on the proportion of GDP they give for overseas aid. Neither France nor Germany have kept their promises about this - we have.

When the others step up to the plate with the Overseas Aid budgets, perhaps then it might be time to reopen discussions.

I would also add that aid does not always get where it needs to go, so throwing money at poverty does not work. As for climate change- the climate has always changed; I am very sceptical about the man made climate change...it seems to me to be the big stick that is being used to beat people with this century,; having cycled through religion, communism, and AIDS, climate change is the next thing.

Less people in the world (so increased use of contraception in certain parts of the world) might solve the problem.

If someone could show me how exactly my pension is costing anyone else money I would be far more inclined to agree with you, OP. But as the gov refuse to show the figures (because they know fine well it would show that the teacher's pension is self-funding) it seems to me that this is nothing more than raiding the pension fund so s to avoid taxing all their fatcat mates who got us into this mess. My pension is my money, it is my deferred wages.

Do not believe everything you read in the papers. Public sector workers pensions are NOT gold-plated. As a teacher, I pay ccontribute to my pension. If these new proposals come into play, keeping in mind that I do NOT get a payrise inline with inflation, it is actually the government who would be profiting from me to the tune of £85 a month in the first instance. Or is that fair simply because I choose to work in the public sector? What a crock of shit. We are not asking for extra money, just what we signed up for. Hardly unreasonable.

*pay a contribution

My pension is my money, it is my deferred wages.

Well said balia

We cannot afford it. Private sector pensions have been hutely cut back and raided by past Governments. That leaves the prigate sector now having to take the pain.

The inflation state sector increases in benefits are also likely to be cut as we cannot afford that 5% rise either. The money isn't there. That's the trouble and no one seems to be making much.

The teachers pension pot is not in deficit it is not costing the tax payer any more money. the unions have continuously asked for the accounts to be made public so that it can be seen by everyone that the funding is there for the next 50 years and that the pension fund is being raided to pay off the countries debt and this request has been ignored every time.

As others have stated, we have gone with the pay freeze, gone with the extra duties due to recruitment freezes, gone with all the changes and not moaned. But, finally, we are saying enough!

We are being told that we have to work for longer, pay more and receive less - how is that fair?

I do not think that we are having it worse than the private sector, but as there are more of us, we are able to speak louder.

I personally can not see that a 68 year old being able to control a class of 30 16 year olds who are not in the mood for learning; see a 68 year old being able to run into a building burning to save a child see a 68 year old being able to move quickly enough to save someone suffering a heart attack.....can you?

ANORAK ALERT

I am a public sector pension employer - I oversee a teeny tiny part of the big scheme
so I see ALL the consultation documents, union document, the chuffing lot.

Since I was first involved in the late 1990's "employer" (ie the rest of us as ratepayer) contributions to schemes have risen from 6.4% to 19.6% of pay

do NOT get me started on the 1980's pension holidays that I audited grudgingly.

Breach of contract.
There is NO retrospective change on public sector pensions.
If you accrued 14/64ths of your salary as pension as at the date of the changes , that amount is locked.
But the next 14 years will only earn you 14/80ths
if you don't like it, leave the scheme.

Race to the bottom
the corollary is that carrying on with the pensions in the public sector way is more like "race over a cliff". THey were NEVER affordable. Gordon Brown was told so in 1998 but he preferred to borrow from the kids and not deal with the issue.
Private companies did. Over the coming years their schemes will comparatively become more generous again - up to the levels of affordability.

Lower pay in the public sector
Tell that to the TVBC / EBC Veiola bin men watching the shenanegins at Southampton City Council
If public sector were cheaper, what has so much "outsourcing" been done.

Am happy to answer questions
but bear in mind that all the evidence I have seen
(including soporific amounts of "NEST" paperwork)
convinces me that the union leaders and the politicians should ALL get their £85k salaries and platinum plated 1/40 increment pensions taken away.

Sorry i may have missed something but im a pub sector worker and in the last 3 years i have been made to move jobs twice cos of the cuts,i haqve had a pay freeze,had my car allowance stopped so i have to use my own car to see clients sometimes hundreds of miles away with only petrol refunded not oil,mot,service etc. I have had my retirement age raised and now my pension interfered with which is the only reason i've stayed in the job thru all this.Not because its an amazing pension but because ive paid inbto it for 12 years so leaving would be a total waste of my money so far.
Wtf??
Btw,im not highly qualified and earn a very average wage as do lots of other ps workers so why should we be treated like this.

cricketballs: the last time the TPS was valued, it was in deficit.

I agree there should be a newer valuation.

But if teachers are so confident of the figures, how about a new deal - you'll give up the (unlimited) government guarantee to cover any future shortfalls (which you argument suggests is valueless, as there won't be any), in return for which you keep the current contributions rate?

TalkinPeace2 Which scheme?

As already discussed on this thread, there are many different schemes and they vary quite widely. To come on and talk about 'the scheme' and 'public sector pensions' as though there is one all encompassing scheme is fairly misleading when you're purporting to be 'in the know'

The huge problem in the public sector is the total disparity between workloads. So you could pay a teacher £30k a year who works 50 hours a week to give their very best. You could also pay a manager/ finance/ technical
bod £30k a year and have them doing very little aside from smoke and mirrors 30 hours a week. So I agree huge reform is needed. Howverr those inthe private sector generally achieve far more in the way of hygiene factors in the workplace and you'd be a fool to underestimate their importance.

Btw as someone who accounts for a final salary scheme you should be v wary of saying it's "in deficit" pension scheme are not supposed to be judged on their position on one day- it's only our accounting standards which force that- for very good reason- but it does lead to armchair knowitalls and the dm to rattle on about something they don't have a dream of
undertanding in context.

Op- YABU.
When anyone enters into an agrrement it should be honoured full stop.

I have already been told that my frozen private sector works pension, is not being honoured, rather that it has been decided that it will calculated differently from thow I was told it would be. Soi now I am informed that I will lose out, I find this totally wrong. Now I am told that my current public sector one is being downvalued and I am being screwd again a second time. I cannot afford to pay more into it. neither do I want to or even think I can do the same job aged 68.

You are also wrong for singling out the armed forces, why are they so special?
I sincerely hope that you do not enter into an agreement and get completely fucked over. Oh but then agian we are in a recession so you can just "suck it up."