To wonder how many times GPs get it wrong, and risk someones life? for the sake of funds??

[lisad123]

Had a call from friend earlier today to say another friend of ours has a tumor on her spine. GP has fobbed her off for ages :(
Same happened with dh, and my gp misdiagonised gallstones and sadly i ended up very unwell.
DD2 we were told had a virus but instead she had pnemonia, and so spent a week in hospital.

Cancer seems to be the thing they miss most often, especially if you dont fit target age ect.
I always feel GPs dont refer or do tests because of funding and people are dying, getting very unwell because of it.

Any chance of a link to that charity, NL?

Any increase in openness can only be a good thing. It should work like restorative justice does for bereaved next-of-kin: at least if you feel such a thing will never happen to anyone else, because lessons have been learned, that is some kind of relief. I imagine there are serious cost issues involved in accepting liability, though.

Haha chocolates causing an issue!

dazzle, are you insinuating that doctors (as a profession) are seriously open to bribery
Hmm I don't think its widespread, but I think it could and does happen. I am aware first hand of 'strange' goings on in purchasing within the NHS. Nothing provable, so I wouldn't like to elaborate but I do know that one of the people concerned left in mysterious circumstances though. I also know that drug companies, like to give gifts to doctors whilst training. The stuff my BiL has been given is eye opening and slightly worrying.

As for complaining, I think its frowned upon by British culture as a rule as being 'difficult'. A lot of people with genuine complaints feel they are being petty or being difficult. Others, don't feel they have a right to, because of the 'its free be grateful mentality) Others still have issues about challenging someone in a position of authority like a doctor.

Like I said earlier, some people feel a lot more comfortable changing doctor and finding another, but the system makes it very difficult to do that unfortunately. It should be a lot easier and clearer for people who really want to do that. Doctors who end up with a lot of patients changing could be a way of spotting problems that would otherwise not be picked up.

Certainly for me, when I had an issue with my doctor, it was small but had a big impact on me in knocking my confidence further. There was no way that I felt capable of making a complaint afterwards. Its made me less trustful and less likely to go to the doctor - potentially putting my health at risk in the future. Not only that because it didn't damage my health at the time and was largely about attitude, failure to listen and bedside manner, I still don't think it would have been taken seriously. It wasn't petty to me - but I think others would view it that way. The power balance between doctor and patient shouldn't be underestimated in terms of how people feel about making complaints.

I think this is a real issue - there is a perception that doctors protect there own anyway, and that even when complaints are dealt with no action is really ever taken. There is a lack of trust in the system.

Anyway on a positive note - DH has been GP this morning. Won't go into details but he was worried about something, they thought it was something else, but did tests anyway. He is feeling a lot better as they came back fine as the doctor expected.

There are good doctors and bad doctors and there is room for improvement in the system which we should always be striving for, rather than throwing out every change before giving it a try. Some will fail as ideas, but some will improve things. I get annoyed at blanket negative responses to change within the NHS by NHS staff. Its as bad as people saying "all GPs are morons" imo.

This article in the Telegraph and the comments below are quite interesting. Especially the comment about patients being too demanding. That seems to be a common theme on here, too.

Interesting that older GPs attract more complaints than younger ones.

Although this is the article I was actually looking for. About people being removed from their GP's list for complaining.

Well there are some patients /relatives who have unreasonable expectations and demands which may not be a priority medically.
There is mainly total rubbish printed in the media.. non scientific scare mongering that the public tend to believe and worry about.
The media then does not have to answer to anyone for their skewed reports on GP earnings , MMR reporting ,unusual flu viruses etc..

There are patients who make unreasonable demands. For example demanding antibiotics at the slightest sniffle, demand painkillers or sleeping tablets in overdose quantities.

Thinking your relative should have been sent for tests rather than being told for 3 whole years that they were a hypochondriac, and this 'diagnosis' even being sent on to the oncologist who eventually confirmed that they had a particular serious form of cancer.... does not constitute an 'unreasonable demand'. I am appalled by anyone that seeks to shift the blame onto 'demanding patients' when the problem is poor doctors.

Nobody is saying that all demands are unreasonable cogito

Sorry pressed post too soon. I gave examples in my post about some demands I would consider unreasonable.

I think we as patients have to start voting with our feet. As someone said upthread, the practices which lose patients a lot could be looked at. I left a practice I'd been with for twelve years because of being fobbed off, refused blood tests and referalls, only to collapse weighing six stone and very ill. In other circumstances I would have been more vocal or moved surgery, but I had a new baby and the illness itself made me so lacking in energy/ability to do so. My new GP is fantastic, I wish I'd moved years ago.

Am I right that patients have the right to register with any practice they wish in their local authority (providing there are places available)?

"Am I right that patients have the right to register with any practice they wish in their local authority (providing there are places available)?"

Hmmm sort of. The current rules are, they can refuse you if you aren't in their catchment area (which isn't the local authority but a practise boundary). Doctors tend to enforce the practise boundaries quite strictly. If you can't find someone who will accept you, you can go through local authority and they will allocate someone, but you don't get a choice. Frankly the system put me off... too difficult and complicated never worked it out as I wasn't in urgent need. After being refused by a surgery 2 miles away for being too far away, I ended up without a doctor for 3 years and used walk in centres when i needed something.

It's just so odd to dismiss the issue of people being chucked off GPs' lists for complaining as media rubbish: it's documented in a report by the Health Service Ombudsman.

People working in the NHS should be aware of official reports on the NHS.

You can't just dismiss everything and everyone. Or shouldn't, anyway, if you are rational.

Who is that to Dazzle? If to UC , I was not commenting on the issue of removing patients from GP lists. I was just saying that the medical coverage in the media is atrocious and misleading. Also that some patients are very demanding and they can detract time and services from where they are needed.

But it's always blame the patient, isn't it?

Look at this:

Katherine Murphy, Chief Executive of The Patients Association, said

?Doctors should see a patient as a human and whatever their need they should be able to provide it. It should be as much a doctor?s responsibility as any other member of staff. Their duties go beyond clinical care and include dignity and respect. It?s surprising and worrying that doctors need to be reminded?.

"Well there are some patients /relatives who have unreasonable expectations and demands which may not be a priority medically. "

The General Medical Council would actually seem to agree with me regarding my (now dead) father's lack of care:

The General Medical Council (GMC) has issued guidelines to doctors instructing them to take a more pro-active role when they see the basic elements of care failing on elderly patients. This includes a lack of hydration, nutrition and hygiene.

Niall Dickson, Chief Executive of the GMC, said

?The shocking neglect of vulnerable and elderly patients revealed by recent reports shows that health professionals have to do more to ensure that every patient gets the quality of care he or she should receive, and is treated with respect. "

But perhaps some would say Niall Dickson is also being unreasonably demanding.

dazlell I think you are missing the point of those who are saying there are patients with unrealistic expectations. We are not referring to your case nor any other case when a hcp has been genuinely negligent. I gave some examples of what I and most hcps would agree were unrealistic demands. I can also give plenty of examples of genuine reasons for complaining.

TBH I think that is all the more reason for people to complain when they feel something isn't right. That way the complaint can be investigated. When a complaint is upheld then work can be done to fix it or at least prevent it hapoening again.. There are lots of different things that can be done when something has gone wrong. The correct course of action can only be determined by proper investigation.

As I said earlier the only people I have known to be removed from a practice are those whose definition of complaining is abuse and or assault.

Well, you need to read what the Health Ombudsman says, then. It's all documented.

My GP saves my DS's life. She was a teenager and had what looked like 'flu, She was too ill for me to take her to our local surgery so the GP came out to see her, went up to her bedroom and almost immediately came down again to use the telephone to call an amulance. He then called the hospital and I heard the word meningism so I knew it was meningitis. He couldn't have acted more quickly and told me that he hadn't seen a case for 10 years. She's fine now. Incidentally, her spots did not appear for another 2 or 3 days while she was in hospital (for 10 days).

I was misdiagnosed by most of the GPs at my practice but I accepted it as the disease had started during pregnancy whereas apparently it normally goes into remission at this time and there was no cover up although an apology would have been great.

What I find horrific is when my DS's paediatrician failed to diagnose his very common medical condition she decided to make totally false accusations that I was abusing my son and causing his symptoms and hence raised child protection concerns. There was nothing to base these accusations on other than my having previously complained about her inability to correctly treat my younger DS.

Have been totally horrified to read her medical records and to realize that she would be happy to destroy a family without evidence either for revenge or just her incompetence. The cover up of all the subsequent records is a total saga in itself. Am awaiting outcome of my complaint but it appears she is now off sick and unlikely ever to return. Has left me still having nightmares every night at what the outcome might have been if we hadnt got a 2nd opinion and got the correct medical diagnosis.

I think everyone accepts that mistakes will be made as it is not an exact science but when doctors have made accusations for revenge, cover ups and still no apology when there is a correct diagnosis it is impossible to accept why the system does not deal with such doctors to protect the good name of all the others.

Dazzle - I was once at a conference where the speaker was talking about how the NHS had essentially killed his father. By appalling irresponsible mistakes in the care of a paranoid schizophrenic man, who was refused admission to a mental health ward, thrown onto the streets, and then killed this man's father.

He asked if anyone had any questions. One woman spoke up and said, oh, I'm the person responsible for dealing with all the official inquiries in my Primary Care Trust, and I'm terribly sorry but the reports do just sit on the shelf. Astonishing. She sounded embarrassed, at least, but good grief... it's no wonder there are so many scandals where people are harmed and killed by the same old failures that have been identified by report after report after report, that always promise 'lessons will be learned'. They never are.

(Btw, of course it's only a tiny, tiny minority of people with mental illness who are any risk to anyone else. You are far more likely to die of 1001 other things and even if you are killed by someone else, it's far more likely they will be sane than mad. But the NHS and social services have a duty to provide appropriate care to people who are a danger to themselves or others.)

My experience was much the same as exaspomum's. I went to 3 different GPs (unfortunately we moved house) once a month from July to January, and each time was told "it's IBS". I even said to them I thought it was cancer and they said it wasn't.

After the 7th visit the GP referred me, and within 6 weeks I'd had surgery for grade 3 bowel cancer.

I don't bear any ill-will towards any of the GPs. Two have apologised for missing it. One even said that on the notes the day they referred me they'd written that I thought it was cancer and they didn't. I just think I should have been referred sooner. It also worries me that in the future a similar situation may arise, although I do believe if we hadn't moved it may have been sorted out sooner, as my notes took several months to get to the new surgery

Paediatrician - "There was nothing to base these accusations on other than my having previously complained about her inability to correctly treat my younger DS. "

I rest my case.

That's what you get if you complain.

Edam, the philosopy is: Never apologise, never explain. And discredit anyone who complains - which, considering the power imbalance, is pretty easy for a doctor to do.

Paediatrician's story is the perfect illustration of this. It was eminently sensible of the doctor to try to discredit Paediatrician in order to cover up her own incompetence. Paediatrician seems to have been strong enough to defend herself; most patients won't be, and they will certainly rue the day they ever raised their voice in opposition.

Tough - that's so sad, I really feel for you. My sister had a herniated disc that was completely incapacitating. The waiting list for MRI was six months - fortunately we were able to persuade my Dad to pay privately. Thank heavens, or she'd be permanently disabled. I'm so sorry you suffered the fate my sister, thankfully, avoided. Oddly enough she's a nurse as well.