to want to tell them to get stuffed?

[Rhubarb0oooo]

I'll fully accept the verdict

I am a copywriter and have been working for one client for a year now. They offer regular work but it's really hard to do, for instance I have to write 40 short articles promoting their scaffolding site that contains 40 odd keywords that need to be included in the article, but each and every article HAS to be unique and different. For this I just charge £12 each which is very cheap, but they are regular clients.

Last week I was really ill - both ends if you must know - but when I emailed all my clients to say so, they wanted to know if I could fit in 3 difficult articles for them. I managed to do so and took on a new job of writing 46 100 word paragraphs each with a different keyword and a relevant example of their recent work and for this they are paying £2.50 per 100 word paragraph.

They have seen 4 examples which they said were ok and wanted me to send 25 finished ones to them before the weekend. I worked whilst ill and during the evening to get it done. Today they have sent me a list of corrections and want me to basically re-write each one.

I've had enough of them. They don't pay me nearly enough and I'm fed up of working my arse off for their every whim and demand. Yet they are regular clients and I'm a bit scared of not being able to replace them very easily, although I've not really had time to try hard.

Should I tell them to get stuffed? I'm feeling really fed up today of having all that hard work slagged off.

P.S. Contrary to the comment on this thread about SEO just being spam, of course it isn't. Some is, some isn't. But that's like claiming all people that work in car showrooms are dodgy dealers. Clearly not the case. I've just finished a 5-article job for a well-known beauty website for their e-newsletter which (by the looks of their job spec and keyword list) will end up on the website - hardly spam!

You have had a very productive 48 hours! Do you have any articles on 'Shifting your arse'???

Well done - you have taken a lot of advice on board and you really deserve to get some lovely new clients and kick the scaffolding guys to the curb

wow, quick work. I'm no expert but I like the way the tweaked site works much more. :).

I still prefer dark text on light background but maybe that's me. Like the new links, like the examples opening separate windows. Makes it all a lot more navigatable (is that a word).

a tiny, tiny thing would be reduce the blank space about the 3 new white large boxes. But that's it.

I really hope it brings in more business for you.

My freelance friends have all been trying a new technique lately - is that explain your charges.....then don't elaborate or try to justify. Sounds bizarre (and is hard to do initially), but make them matter of fact. Pause and move on. It has transformed a couple of friends lives - who always felt terrible justifying charges and trying to 'sell'.

Good luck

Also, I don't want to detract from the work you've done on your website so far, but it could still do with another small nudge up on the professionalism scale - I'm instantly put off by the "Get a free blog at" wording on your website's footer.

I'm sorely tempted to post my own portfolio website so that you can see what I'm talking about, but really don't want my professional name linked to MN activity.

So I've found some that give you an indication of what I'm talking about:

www.tomrigby.com/
allday.cc/
www.kevinmillscopy.com/

If you're doing niche copywriting (in your case, mostly for SEO), can you look around and do a small amount of competitor analysis to find out what you're pitching yourself against...? See how they present themselves - perhaps even join a few groups on LinkedIn for some insider advice and information on pricing to go alongside it.

Last post on this - but I would also seriously consider the retainer pricing structure, if you haven't already. I wouldn't go back to working on a piece basis, no matter what the fee, these days.

oh god I am in review mode today (avoiding work).

One thing that would put me off a little bit (very odd I know) is the following strap lines

Increase your ranking with Google. Attract more visitors. Stand out from the rest! Increase productivity.

Why does the third statement have an exclamation mark. I think it looks odd when three out of the four statements don't. Perhaps drop the !

I think the new positivity is great though - much more inviting and confident.

right - definitely running away now, I agree with gammy gal. The website needs a tiny nudge up the professionalism scale. But not by much, just a tad. I don't know, for me is something about the font size and spacing and the colour combinations. The links on the right could be slightly better spaced to given a cleaner look.

www.tomrigby.com/
allday.cc/
www.kevinmillscopy.com/

I have reposted the gammygal links above to show the comparison. I really like the first one, and the second one is interesting.

Please don't take any of the comments to heart. I think you are undercharging when clearly you have lots of expertise. Good website I do think create an initial impression.

"I think you are undercharging when clearly you have lots of expertise."

I don't mean to generalise, but I think that the main problem that UK-based copywriters have (if they go freelance) is that they undervalue their skills, and try to compete on the global market. They see oDesk and elance projects bidding at a few pounds what I would charge hundreds of pounds for, forgetting that most projects on those websites are chancers, or are intended for lower-skilled and/or less expensive freelancers.

I can't compete against someone from the Philippines if some small business in Kent wants its website overhauled, and needs good search engine exposure. They'll only have a £200 budget, and nitpick about the quality of the work the entire time.

What I can compete with is based on different factors:

• The fact that I'm based in the UK (accountability)

• I hold recognised qualifications in journalism, and actively contribute to professional copywriting circles (perhaps my MN posts don't reflect it, but I assure you I have an established professional reputation, most recently expanded with LinkedIn and Twitter over the last couple of years) (prestige)

• I have very good recommendations from well-respected organisations in the UK (I've never been employed by a blue chip company, but a surprising amount of national brands started with small web development teams who had no SEO staff and/or no copywriters... there's one in particular that was just a small local chain when I worked for them, but now they've got chains across the south of England)

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I can't compete with someone from the Philippines on price, but I can hold my own in terms of quality, recommendations, customer service.

Just like any other freelancer, I think!

Now you see, the first example of Tom Rigby has a very friendly, pally style that I've been told to avoid!

I think there are so many different bits of advice that I am taking but ultimately I'd like to keep my style and the colours I have now.

I've compromised on the pricing structure as again, Tom Rigby quotes per hour and throws in "reasonable amendments" with the original quote. So that's what I'm doing but I have also stated that I am willing to do smaller pieces for individual rates.

The footer has been taken out

There are many more tweaks I need to make and the posts I did today need me to spend more time on them. However I've had lots of good advice and have taken much of it on board, so hopefully over the next few days you will see big improvements and then next week I shall start approaching B2B companies and we'll see where I go from there.

Oh did you notice, our pal Tom also has white text but on a blue background - so there!

I've worked for loads of blue-chips - the only problem we ever find is that that they don't get what writing involves and thus can annoy. But that's why they're paying me, so it's part and parcel of the job.

If you want to move into this area, start working for a charity - first step on the path to the public sector and thence to megacorps.

I agree gammygal, I am competing against undergrads who need the experience and are willing to even work for free just to get their portfolio in order and also crap copywriters who simply spam for a pittance but many new businesses only see the cheap rates.

I haven't enough experience yet to be charging £35 per hour or £350 per day and that is obvious from my portfolio. So I need to be reasonable about what I charge.

I appreciate all the time and effort everyone has given me, it means a lot and is one of the reasons I love Mumsnet so much

You've warmed mi cockles!

by the way, I don't know a great deal about copywriting, I'm responding from a website perspective.

I've had another look at the three links gammygall provided. One think they all have in common is the home page 'fits' on a small net book type screen (v common now). This looks very neat and clean. On my 10inch screen your name and the pen images take up just a bit more than half of the screen. Then you need to scroll down for more information, and then there is the contact me (which perhaps would be better on another page). Effectively you are not getting the full impact of your site straight away on first view. Just something you may want to play with if you are having a re-vamp. It one element that makes the other example sites seem more professional and well designed.

I know good copywriting isn't necessarily linked to effective web design (different set of skills), but I think one do link. An awareness of how something looks on the screen would indicate (to me) that you understood web advertising inside out and had high production values. If I was choosing a copywriter the quality of their website would be one thing I would consider, along with cost and the expertise on offer. But again I am that experience in choosing copywriters - so perhaps I am easily influenced by the factors I can understand. But I guess clients come with a range of backgrounds too!

lol, lol, lol, I did clock the blue background! But not eating words ;-).

The best of luck to you. Hope you don't mind the feedback too much.

Loving the feedback sunshinenow - where else would I get this much advice not only from people in the field, but also employers and average internet users. Brilliant!

(Oh and those copywriters would not have designed their own sites, they would have paid professionals to do it for them. Design and writing are quite different and some of those sites have very complicated html codes. Me, I build my own with a little help from wordpress thanks very much )

I'm also a copywriter, working freelance at the moment. I'm reluctant to put my pricing structure on here, but I was wondering if there was any merit in starting a closed group (on FB) for example, where we could find out what each other's specialities were, and maybe learn from each other. I'm working on a long-term contract for the next 18 months or so, so not actively looking for new work, so it would be useful to know other copywriters that I could direct people to.

I did think they would have got someone else to do them. Was more thinking of pinching using the best of what they have and applying it to your own (lovingly hand crafted) site.:)

I honestly don't think it would take much to make a big difference (I was astonished by how much better a few wording changes could make from yesterday). The package you use I am sure could be stretched!

Happy to give feedback, you take what you need and dump the rest as 'tinterweb witterings!

It's not a bad idea. I know of someone who started such a group but it was for North West based copywriters only and didn't really get anywhere.

I don't normally befriend Mumsnetters on Facebook as my account is very personal and private, largely based around my family and friends, but I'm happy to start a group. I'll PM you with my details if you like? It would be great to sound off amongst fellow copywriters and get a little support every now and then. Plus, as you say, if we get busy it's nice to have others that we can recommend

Rhubarb you are 100% correct on the website development aspect. I don't even pretend that I know what it takes to design, code and SEO a website properly - massively outside my skillset. I do words, not code or technicals.

That's probably why I'm on a fifth of the annual income than the clients I work for - bastards

However - please remember that your online presence reflects your impact as a copywriter. It shouldn't; but it does.

I've known (well, networked) with what I would consider average copywriters, but their personal marketing was wonderful - hence why they were passing me work and contacts on occasion. Of course I'm bias (don't we all think we're better than average?)... but I genuinely think that clients, who often don't understand how hiring a freelance copywriter works (or even what their scope of the job is, much less how to specify it), have nothing else to judge you by. Aside from the copy on your site, which should be fantastic, of course

So, remember, often the people hiring you don't really know how to judge a good copywriter from a bad one. The things they appear to value are transparency in pricing, a professional website, and so on.

I would urge you to get the copy on your website into shape first, and then look at hiring a professional to create your online brand - your website! Alongside that, establish yourself in social networks - become a presence. It is, after all, what your clients are wanting to do for themselves.

You don't need to go to a website development agency where the price tags start with three zeros - even grabbing and up-and-coming university student with an eye/talent for design and code can be worthwhile...

Rhubarb you seem to be getting a bit defensive about your website in the last few posts e.g. I just do myself with wordpress thanks very much... I can understand it might be hard to hear so many comments on your site but I think if you act on some of the advice here it could really help you. To be brutally honest your website would put me off as it comes across quite amateurish (the tone and the design which appears to be a generic template). I think it would be money well spent and a good investment if you paid a professional to redesign for you. Good luck.

Um, I don't think so proudfoot and not sure you can use that one comment made in jest, amongst all the other posts where I have profusely thanked posters and made changes based on advice given, to justify your notion that I am getting defensive.

But thanks for your comments. I don't have the spare cash available to pay anyone to design my site so I'm afraid I shall just have to go with "amateurish". Oops, did that come across as defensive?

I work as a copywriter/editor and charge around £15 per hour and work 7 hours per day regardless of how many words I write in that hour. It could be 1000 or it could be 300. It is different though as I write about a very specific subject so it isn't about quantity. However, I think you are charging way too little.

I write about education by the way!

I think you have the right to charge more, as you are now experienced rather than just starting out, and also you need to charge reflecting cost of living.

Clients should do their own research and provide you with the information to be included in the articles, your job is to provide them with the written stuff. If the current clients decide not to continue with your services that's their right, but as previously mentioned, they may well regret it when the level of work for so much greater fees isn't what they are used to getting.

Cheers! Am now happy with the rates I've specified - I think.
Am still messing about site, feel free to give amendment feedback!