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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To really not understand why childminders expect to be paid for their holidays and sick pay?

82 replies

BootyMum · 31/10/2011 08:52

I have a lovely childminder for my two DS. The contract is that I pay when they are sick or on holiday [which is fair enough imo] but also if she is on holiday [standard 4 weeks a year] or sick.

I can't really understand how childminders have made it standard that they expect to be paid for their holidays and sick pay. My childminder is not my employee, as a nanny would be. She is self employed and is paid to perform a service. I think if she is not available to perform that service, for whatever reason, I should not be expected to fork out.

I am self employed as is my DH. Both of us provide services to clients in our professions. When we are on holiday or sick we don't get paid. We wouldn't dream of billing clients for time when we were absent [and I imagine our clients wouldn't stand for it either!], so why is it fair that childminders have this arrangement?

As it stands, when my childminder is absent I have to pay her but have to take time off from my own work to take care of DS 1 & 2 and don't get paid. Or I have to find other childcare arrangements and pay twice.

I just think the terms of contract are unreasonable but seem to be pretty standard for childminders [I am in London btw]

AIBU?

OP posts:
southeastastra · 31/10/2011 08:53

why don't you put this in the childminder section where actual childminders could advise you rather than aibu? Hmm

nickschic · 31/10/2011 08:55

Its shocking isnt it.

These people who look after the most priceless things in our lifes and they want demand holiday pay .......Biscuit.

If your dc went to a private nursery youd have to pay fees even on holidays when the nursery is shut.

ToothbrushThief · 31/10/2011 08:59

booty - presumably your fees are increased to cover eventualities like sickness and holiday

(They should be, if you're a good business?)

Most pay schemes are planned to allow for these events. In bigger business it's easier and I can see your problem with it if yupou're a small business or newly setting

I also imagine it could be frustrating if 'sick' was recurrent. If my staff go sick I have cover...I have a sick note...I have a recognised protocol for ensuring my staff are treated well but I'm not exploited by malingering.

ToothbrushThief · 31/10/2011 09:00

you're a new business or newly setting up

I blame my new glasses for a morning of crap typing

Original poster
BootyMum · 31/10/2011 09:00

southeastastra I don't need advice from childminders. I am asking if I am being unreasonable. Thanks anyway.

nickschic I don't think your comments really address the point. I appreciate my childminder and what she does. But she is self-employed not my employee. So why should I pay her holiday and sick pay? If she wants that I just feel she should be employed by someone, ie a nursery.
And just because private nurseries have the same contract doesn't make it right Hmm

OP posts:
slavetofilofax · 31/10/2011 09:03

I agree with you. My DH is self employed and he doesn't get holiday pay or sick leave, so I don't see why childminders should either.

It's fair enough that they expect to be paid if you go on holiday, as you are the one choosing not to use the service when they would be available and willing to provide it. But if they choose to be away or are sick, they shouldn't be paid.

The fact that they are looking after the most precious things in the world to you is irrelevant. They are running a business like any other.

NoMoreWasabi · 31/10/2011 09:03

Actually I agree with you. It seems to want it both ways - to be self employed and yet have the benefits of being an employee.

Original poster
BootyMum · 31/10/2011 09:03

ToothbrushThief my husband and I do not own or run businesses. We work in companies as employees but are self employed/contractors, iyswim. The companies set our hourly rate. So we both get paid for the hours we actually work. If we are sick or on holiday we don't get paid.

OP posts:
ENormaSnob · 31/10/2011 09:03

My childminder doesn't do this.

I pay if my child is unwell or when we take holidays.

I don't pay for her holidays or if she's sick.

GypsyMoth · 31/10/2011 09:05

Yes I agree too. Self employed so that's the way it should be.

Yanbu op....

lesley33 · 31/10/2011 09:07

Agree it seems unfair. But in a market place, it is logical for your cm to charge as much as she can get and if she can get holiday and sick pay,then it makes sense to get it.

shesparkles · 31/10/2011 09:08

YANBU at all!!
I too had a fab childminder but it really wound me up that I had to pay her for hols (although not her sickness)

You're either self employed or you're not, you can't have it both ways

taniar82 · 31/10/2011 09:10

I'm a childminder and do not charge for my own holidays or sick. If u didn't agree to the terms of the contract why did u sign? I know a few childminders who charge for their holiday but none who charge for their sickness

HSMM · 31/10/2011 09:14

I am a CM and I only charge when I am available, so it is not 'standard' to charge holidays and sick. Sometimes the CMs who charge holiday and sick have a lower hourly rate, so over the year you may be paying the same amount.

As Taniar82 said - you agreed to the terms of the contract ...

Takver · 31/10/2011 09:15

Its definitely not universal - our childminder didn't charge for her holidays. She wasn't ever sick in the time dd went to her so I don't know what would have happened then.

She did try to re-arrange where possible so that if she had a day off her charges would come on a different day - she only minded 2 days a week and most of her parents were self employed so that was fine. But for her 2 week holiday she didn't charge.

HSMM · 31/10/2011 09:16

NCMA have suggested CMs can charge, as it is a long term contract, not one off jobs, like many self employed workers. When I worked for a large company and we took on long term Self Employed Contractors, they were entitled to holiday and sick time off paid.

DebiTheScot · 31/10/2011 09:16

My current childminder charges for something like 2 weeks of holidays but not any others. Twice she has taken holiday in term time (to take her pre-schl age grandchildren on holiday and she's not got many pre-schl age ones left now so hopefully she won't do it again as I'm a teacher so obviously can't take holidays) and as her daughter is a child minder she was able to have my youngest so we paid her instead. Apart from a couple of days where the daughter couldn't help out and so cm didn't charge.

We don't pay when/if she is sick but again, if the daughter can help she will.

My previous childminder charged for 4 weeks holidays but I don't think she charged if she was ill. And she was a stickler for getting every penny she could from you!

Takver · 31/10/2011 09:18

Having said that we have self employed people working for us in our business, and we do pay them holiday pay - I'd rather do that (and take it into account in setting pay rates) than have people not take time off.

So it doesn't seem unreasonable of her if it is in her contract with you and the overall rate per year is ok. But if she is having a lot of time off sick, I can see it would be problematic and perhaps need further talking over.

Original poster
BootyMum · 31/10/2011 09:18

taniar82 and HSMM thanks for your comments. I spoke to a few childminders prior to deciding to go with my one and they all had the same contract - paid holiday and sickness.

I am in SE London. Perhaps it is standard here to charge that but not everywhere?

OP posts:
janedoe25 · 31/10/2011 09:21

I am a childminder and I don't charge when I am unavailable, but like the others have said why did you sign the contract if you are not happy with the terms?

nulgirl · 31/10/2011 09:22

YANBU. My childminder doesn't charge for her holidays or when she's sick (I assume, as she has not had a day off sick in the 2 years I have used her). She charges me when my ds is off sick but is quite flexible about changing days around if my ds is sick on one of the days she is meant to have him.

I have been working as a contractor for the past few years and am not paid for holidays or when sick. The higher daily rate compensates for this which is how I assume it should work with a childminder.

TheBrideofFrankenstein · 31/10/2011 09:24

I can sort of see the logic of the holidays, in that most contractors charge/receive a higher hourly rate than an employee, which basically takes into account their lack of holiday entitlement. However, it's unreasonable as a self-employed person to charge your clients for your time off sick. That's just a factor of being self-employed.

gamerwidow · 31/10/2011 09:30

If you don't like the terms of the contract you should shop around for better terms. My CM doesn't charge if she is sick but charges a rate of 50% for up to 8 weeks of holiday a year, 4 of which she can take and 4 that we can take. BTW we are in SE London.

riksti · 31/10/2011 09:34

A slightly different perspective - possibly coloured by my job which is tax consultant. HMRC sometimes reviews self-employed workers' status to see whether they are actually employed and are just using self-employed status to avoid tax. The employer paying sick pay and holiday pay are strong indicators towards employment. If HMRC do find that the childminder is employed by you then all the tax due will become your liability.
As I said, this view is probably coloured by the work that I do but I would be very careful about agreeing such a contract since it potentially leaves you open to liability. Obviously I don't know anything about your contract or circumstances but if you're worried it might be worth having a professional look at it to make sure there are no nasty surprises.
Finally, definitely not unreasonable to expect a self-employed individual to cover their own sick leave and holiday.

LydiaWickham · 31/10/2011 09:35

YANBU - I wouldn't sign a contract like that.

The nursery I use for DS charges a daily rate, but I'm billed monthly, with a slight reduction on those set days allowing for the week they are closed over christmas and the bank holidays. (which I'm not charged for).

I pay when DS isn't there,because they provide the place whether I use it or not. When DS's key worker is on holiday, I still pay, but then they have other staff covering, same for sick leave.

If she wants paying for holidays and sick pay, then she should provide an alternative childcare option without you having to pay twice.

All you've got there is the down side of employing someone directly, but not the upsides of being in control. With 2, would it be much more expensive to hire a nanny/use a nursery?