To really not understand why childminders expect to be paid for their holidays and sick pay?

[BootyMum]

I have a lovely childminder for my two DS. The contract is that I pay when they are sick or on holiday [which is fair enough imo] but also if she is on holiday [standard 4 weeks a year] or sick.

I can't really understand how childminders have made it standard that they expect to be paid for their holidays and sick pay. My childminder is not my employee, as a nanny would be. She is self employed and is paid to perform a service. I think if she is not available to perform that service, for whatever reason, I should not be expected to fork out.

I am self employed as is my DH. Both of us provide services to clients in our professions. When we are on holiday or sick we don't get paid. We wouldn't dream of billing clients for time when we were absent [and I imagine our clients wouldn't stand for it either!], so why is it fair that childminders have this arrangement?

As it stands, when my childminder is absent I have to pay her but have to take time off from my own work to take care of DS 1 & 2 and don't get paid. Or I have to find other childcare arrangements and pay twice.

I just think the terms of contract are unreasonable but seem to be pretty standard for childminders [I am in London btw]

AIBU?

YABU. They are a commercial enterprise and can charge what they like and set what terms they like on the service they provide. It's then up to consumers whether to pay those charges or go elsewhere.

If they can fill their spaces whilst charging holiday and sick pay why wouldn't they? If they find that doing that makes them uncompetitive and they lose business, they'd change.

A quick look at the childminder board would answer your question, I think.

Anyway, to summarise the points that have so often been made:

A childminder has her own contract. It's up to her whether or not she charges for holidays and sickness. If you sign the contracy, you're agreeing to this. You're therefore being unreasonable to complain about terms that you have agreed to.

A childminder's sickness is often because of the bugs a minded child has brought it. Perhaps if parents didn't dose their children up and try to pass off diarrhoea as "teething", childminders wouldn't feel justified in charging when they take those rare days off sick. Most childminders will try to keep going as they know that parents rely on them. Sick days aren't taken lightly.

Same with holidays. Childminders don't just down tools and relax on their holidays. I spend a lot of the time in preparation, notes, learning journeys, rearranging the house, giving it a thorough clean because the mindees make lots of mess, draw on walls, what have you. Even though your childminder may not physically have your child with you, he or she will probably still be working for the benefit of your child.

Not all childminders charge for sickness and holiday. Those that don't invariably factor in sickness and holiday into their fees, as do many self-employed people. They'll have a higher rate, therefore (though I bet it's nothing like the high rates that other self-employed professions charge). Perhaps those childminders that charge for holidays and sickness are just being transparent in their charges and letting you know exactly what you're paying for.

I think that's everything? If you're wondering, I don't charge for either sickness or holiday: I factor it in. I also get people whinging that I charge more than some of the other childminders in the area. Can't win really, can we?

I wonder if we'll get that other chestnut about why is a childminder on the internet when she should be working? ;)

To answer that one to those who are worrying about my charges' safety and well-being, I work with another childminder. Lucky me. Most don't get a break at all. The computer is in the playroom with the children and I can see them at all times. I hope this addresses any concerns you may have :)

To address riksti's points, the NCMA encourages childminders to charge for sickness and holiday for the reasons I've stated. They work very closely with the IR and negotiate on behalf of childminders so I doubt very much that parents would find themselves liable for their childminder's tax. They'll have checked out the legal situation in full.

OP nothibg to do with the op subject but I'd be careful with your working set up - it could get you and employer into trouble - the tax man thinks you should be PAYE if you are working for just one client like that

I signed the contract as I really liked the childminder and she is reasonably close to home [I don't drive and have to walk DC there prior to going to work].

As I said, all the childminders I spoke with in my area had the same contract. So I assumed it was standard, particularly as the contract she had me sign was an official one from the registering body [NMCA?]

YANBU Childminders are self-employed and therefore they have to look after their own holiday pay and sick pay. You don't pay a self-employed person if they aren't available to work for you. You do pay if you go away when they are available to work, so it's reasonable to pay them if you go on holiday.

I think the tax and employer implications mentioned at the bottom of page 1 are worth reading as well.

YANBU, its one of many reasons I would never choose a childminder over other forms of childcare.

If you are SE you do so in the knowledge that the benefits of working for yourself outweigh the lack of holiday and sickness pay.

YANBU Op, this is why I use nursery not a CM

If you employ a nanny you set the terms and the nanny decides whether to accept the job or not on that basis.

If you want to use a childcare service such as a childminder or nursery, they set the terms and you decide whether to use their service or an alternative based on those terms.

Yes it's not how many self-employed people work, but it's not going to be costing any more, as if they didn't charge for holidays/sickness their rates would be higher.

As with any service or product you buy, unless there is an unfair monopoly situation, you can't say their terms are unreasonable because you have the option to buy that product or service elsewhere.

Yanbu, its a funny little anomaly in the world of childminding. P.S. I couldn't find one that didn't have this sort of contract in SE London either, op.

But flowery makes a fair point about the rates.

I agree flowery.

CM's always say (at least in the MN childcare section) that: "It's whatever is in the contract." They seem to be going by NCMA recommendations.

BUT they are not tax experts and what riksti says is very important. I think there is a very good chance HMRC could judge these individuals as being employed under these circumstances. I don't work for HMRC but deal with subcontractors/suppliers of services and HRMC is tightening up massively in this area. If we paid holiday/sick leave to these people I am sure that our legal counsel would judge them employees to capture our risk.

YANBU, it doesn't sound right at all.

Flowery - the rates may be higher to reflect the fact that they are covering holiday time. But I would err on the side of caution if I were signing the contract of a cm and NOT put paid holiday in it.

Errrr I don't get any holiday pay or sick pay.We were told on our induction that you can't ask for payment if you're not available to work.

I don't work during the school holidays and get nothing or for any set holiday at all.

Where I work I know of only one childminder who expects such payment and I know it bugged her clients.

I agree YANBU.

Dh and I are self employed.

We do not get paid during the school summer holidays and do not charge a higher rate to account for that (or we would price ourselves out of the market). Dh has insurance to cover himself if he is sick. I don't.

Instead we try to find other work to cover those periods (summer schools etc).

When my dc were in nursery they closed for 2 weeks at Christmas, we did not pay whilst they were closed but we did pay if we chose not to sned the dc during school holidays as they were open ready to provide a service. The mursery now offers term time only options at the same rate.

My own personal view is that self-employed people or in fact any service shouldn't charge if unavailable and should factor into their rates whatever costs they incur in providing that service as well. But ultimately as a commercial enterprise it's entirely up to them to work out what charging arrangements the market where they are will support.

In terms of tax I don't think HMRC would consider childminders employed. Yes payment of holiday and sick pay is one indicator that someone might be employed but it's only one of several things HMRC would look at in deciding someone's employment status and I think overall there are plenty of indicators that childminders are not employed by all the parents using their service.

I'm in the same boat as you OP. I work freelance and couldn't afford to have time off due to other people's sickness or holiday. That's why I used a nursery instead of a childminder. I have also used a nanny-share: between the five of us, the nanny and all four parents, we could always sort cover.

My childminder doesn't charge for her sick days or for holidays as she is term time only. But you would have signed a contract with her terms and conditions and you chose to sign it and accept that she gets paid for sick days or holidays.

There are a lot of opinions on here and some very well-informed tax and employment law advice. Maybe the tax and employment law advice is useful? I just see a lot of people ignoring it and expressing their personal opinions, but opinion doesn't have the weight of the law.

Can see both sides - this is why I don't use a CM. I am very lucky to have DD is a very small nursery which is a great compromise for us.

When I was looking for childminders one told me she had only taken 2 days holiday in the last 2 years as she being self employed she couldn't afford to take holiday, and she'd never been off sick. And my thoughts were, actually, I don't want someone looking after my child who is knackered and never has a day off and always works even when they are ill. Went for a nursery in the end anyway.

The other thing is if someone working for me in the company I work for, calls in sick, there are certain things that we can do. They are required to send in a doctors note after a certain period of time. We can refer them to occupational health if there is a particular pattern or concern over their sickness, and in some cases formal warnings/disciplinary procedures can be undertaken. So your childminder has the benefit an employee has of taking sick leave, but none of the employee's responsibilities and you have none of the employer's rights, although I suppose you can give notice to leave.

So YANBU on the sick leave.