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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To really not understand why childminders expect to be paid for their holidays and sick pay?

82 replies

BootyMum · 31/10/2011 08:52

I have a lovely childminder for my two DS. The contract is that I pay when they are sick or on holiday [which is fair enough imo] but also if she is on holiday [standard 4 weeks a year] or sick.

I can't really understand how childminders have made it standard that they expect to be paid for their holidays and sick pay. My childminder is not my employee, as a nanny would be. She is self employed and is paid to perform a service. I think if she is not available to perform that service, for whatever reason, I should not be expected to fork out.

I am self employed as is my DH. Both of us provide services to clients in our professions. When we are on holiday or sick we don't get paid. We wouldn't dream of billing clients for time when we were absent [and I imagine our clients wouldn't stand for it either!], so why is it fair that childminders have this arrangement?

As it stands, when my childminder is absent I have to pay her but have to take time off from my own work to take care of DS 1 & 2 and don't get paid. Or I have to find other childcare arrangements and pay twice.

I just think the terms of contract are unreasonable but seem to be pretty standard for childminders [I am in London btw]

AIBU?

OP posts:
gateacre1 · 31/10/2011 10:57

I am In SE London too and all the childminders I have visited charge for their holidays. I need to check up on the sick pay element.
There are hardly any childminders where I live so its a sellers market and they can charge what they want.
paying £120 a day for a service I cant use is painful when the childminders are on holiday!!

flowery · 31/10/2011 11:02

For the avoidance of doubt my personal opinion is that it's preferable for self-employed service providers not to charge when unavailable.

My professional opinion is that HMRC would not class childminders as being employed by all the parents using their service even if they do charge for holidays and sick pay.

Emilizz · 31/10/2011 11:03

YANBU. A childminder who works in her own home is self employed and therefore you should only need to pay if your child can't attend due to illness, your holidays etc. You shouldn't have to pay if she takes holidays.

If the minder is in your home then she is an employee so you would have to pay for holidays and if she wasn't needed on a particular day for any reason .

working9while5 · 31/10/2011 11:06

YANBU in the slightest. I am not self-employed but am likely to be in the next 2-3 years and I would not be allowed to do this as a professional. It is not right CM's do it.

LadyHarrietDeSpook · 31/10/2011 14:10

Yes there are lots of things that HMRC would look at in determining whether the person was self employed or not but from what I've seen at work from our subcontractors (who have A LOT more say about when they take work on and under which conditions they do it than a childminder once a contract is signed) these sorts of contracts do not seem to be w/o risk to the parent.

Many cm's take their guidance from NMCA who are hardly tax experts. But it's the parents who would be liable.

activate · 31/10/2011 14:11

childminders don't

if there service is unavailable because of them they don't get paid

if you choose not to send your child they do

RitaMorgan · 31/10/2011 14:16

It's up to each childminder to set their own terms, and up to you to choose one.

My childminder doesn't get paid if she's sick, but she does have 5 weeks of half-pay for holidays. Over the course of a year though, she is still cheaper than other CMs who don't charge for holidays but have a higher hourly rate.

doublechocchipper · 31/10/2011 14:22

YANBU. It's basically cherry picking only the good bits of self employment, isn't it?

woahthere · 31/10/2011 14:28

I wouldnt tar us all with the same brush if I were you, I dont charge for holidays or if Im sick, I dont know any that do, you're the mug for agreeing to it.

stepawayfromtheecclescakes · 31/10/2011 14:28

seems odd to me and a tad unfair, seem to remember having xx number of weeks when mine were with childminder that we did'nt pay when she took holidays

harassedandherbug · 31/10/2011 14:34

My dd has now been with her lovely cm for 5yrs (hard to believe ).

She doesn't charge for her holidays and sickness, but we pay if dd is off sick and have 2 weeks hols per year at half price. That's pretty standard around here (Hampshire).

Dh is self employed and he moans like hell about paying for bank holidays... only SE job where you get paid for not working etc etc etc. Every time Hmm.

Sidge · 31/10/2011 14:38

YANBU.

It's all very well people saying "well don't sign the contract if you don't agree to the terms" but if all CMs in an area have the same charging structure, and this CM ticks all the other boxes, then they've got you where they want you really.

I am lucky in that I have a wonderful, flexible CM. She charges me PAYG Grin - I pay for what I use. However I pay her when I don't send the girls as it's my choice if we have holiday - she is still available to work. But I wouldn't expect her to charge me if she's not available to work.

I can't freely pick and choose as to when I book my annual leave from work (in a small team so we have to share) so I appreciate flexibility from my CM, in that she slots her time off around mine. I can't afford to pay twice for childcare.

TimothyClaypoleLover · 31/10/2011 14:48

OP, YANBU. I live in the South East (not London) and all the CMs round my way only charge if your child is sick or you are on holiday NOT if they are sick or on holiday. In fact I know of several CMs who allow holiday time of up to 20 days with prior notice so you don't actually have to pay when you are on holiday. If you are having to pay the CMs holiday and sickness you may as well have your DC in nursery.

altinkum · 31/10/2011 15:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Indaba · 02/11/2011 20:07

I am with altinkum

You have taken out a contract for services....you should honour it.

Read contract before hand. Up to you if you engage her. If you don't like it, go elsewhere.

As someone who is in a household full of self employed people I would expect them to be savvy re reading contract terms.

Sorry if I sound harsh but it is no different engaging a child minder versus any other sort of service provider.

Original poster
BootyMum · 02/11/2011 21:50

Thanks for all your replies, it has made interesting reading.

Seems about 50/50 at the moment whether I am being unreasonable or not!

I am happy with my childminder and she is great with my DC.

As I said earlier, all the childminders I spoke with in my area all had the same contract. I was happy to sign the contract as I wanted my children to go to a childminder rather than a nursery for various reasons.

However I was struck by feeling the childminder's contract [I believed it to be a standard contract at the time but realise after reading this thread that it is not how all childminders work] to be a little unfair - particularly perhaps in comparison to my own working practices as a self employed person.

But hey ho, we can't have everything and she ticks all the boxes in the important areas like reliability and being I think genuinely fond of my DC.

OP posts:
bibbitybobbitybloodyaxe · 02/11/2011 21:55

Booty - I think ultimately you just have to satisfy yourself that if she (and the other childminders in the area) decided not to charge for holiday pay, then she would simply put her hourly rate up to cover it instead.

As with many things, costs and charges for services differ hugely according to where you live in the country and local demand/supply.

rettam · 02/11/2011 23:53

Sounds like a dodgy made up contract to me. Childminders do not charge if they are ill. The NCMA contract that parents sign says "no fee is payable for, or in respect of, any time that the contracted service is not available".

HeresTheThingBooyhoo · 03/11/2011 00:21

OP you could always re-negtiate the terms of your contract when it comes up for renewal. does no harm to ask and if she thinks you might go elsewhere she may have a rethink.

RitaMorgan · 03/11/2011 14:02

rettam - childminders can make up any contract they want! You don't have to use the NCMA one.

sunshineandbooks · 03/11/2011 15:10

I thought it was considered good practice not to charge because it was recognised that you would need the money to cover alternative arrangements in your CM's absence.

I pay my CM for our holidays and sick days but she doesn't charge for hers. However, if she is ill quite often I don't knock the money off next month's bill because she is so wonderful, I want her to feel valued, I know she's genuine and I am lucky enough to be able able to work from home for the day if need be.

I've never come across any other CMs who charge for their holidays and sick pay.

Mmatty · 27/10/2024 20:26

So I live in NI and our childminder told us she’d be taking her holidays last week of this month. She has now come to say she’d unwell and won’t watch the kids tomorrow and that we’d have to pay for her sick leave.

Our contract says otherwise that sick
leaves are unpaid for..

sharpclawedkitten · 27/10/2024 20:31

I also agree with you OP. They are self-employed, not employed.

But it was ever thus, my son is now in his early 20s and his CM charged for her holidays (but to be fair, not if she took any sick leave).

Wouldbedriver · 27/10/2024 20:33

I suspect OP is not using childminders any more!

V0xPopuli · 27/10/2024 20:34

My childminder doesn't charge me for her holidays or sick days.

Of course i pay her when im on holiday or kids off ill as thats space she's not giving another child.