Why are so many non-Christians bothered about the (relatively few) borrowings from the Christian myth in the Narnia books?

[BelfastBloke]

Apart from Aslan's resurrection in one book, which is quite heavy-handed, Christian elements don't seem to be that prevalent across the seven books.

Yet many people seem to be deeply suspicious that the Chronicles of Narnia are a form of propaganda which will indoctrinate their kids.



I know that CS Lewis was a part-time Christian evangelist (and full-time Professor of Medieval Lit), but the books themselves don't seem suffused with the doctrines in the way one might expect; and certainly not in the way they're sometimes described.

Now I was actually brought up broadly CofE and went to a church primary school, but the idea of Dawn Treader being about the acts of the apostles is a new one on me. Actually, not having read the books for a while, the only one that I can think of as being a bit obvious about Aslan-is-Jesis would be LWW, most of what goes on in the rest of them is what I would consider fairly universal mythological tropes (the quest, the betrayal, the overthrowing of tyrannies, the doing-the-right-thing-in-difficult-circumstances, Good vs Bad, about the only trope they don't really deal with is Boy Meets Girl but then they were written for kids).

I actually felt quite horribly betrayed as a geeky 9 year old atheist when I copped on to the Christian symbolism.

'Woooaaah...hang on...oh you stealth ninja god-bothering BASTARD!' . I was furious, because I'd loved them up till then.

I'm more about the equally blatant misogyny & racism now. No problem with the Xtian references - all for a bit of mythological allegory for my dc, & yy to balancing it with Philip Pullman.

However, my ds was put off Narnia early because his name's Edmund, an opinion subsequently consolidated by the films being boring. I'll be interested to see what the dds make of them - from a feminist standpoint they are pretty appalling, but then so are lots of the books I devoured - LOTR,anyone?

Exactly, SolidGold. You put it better than i did.

well, he was a Christian. He was also a medievalist, so well versed in all those romances and fabliaux, and did his first degree in classics, so had all the classical tales at his fingertips too. Not really all that surprising that he drew heavily on all those sources. I think that's what makes them so popular, the draw together all those stories milling around in all our subconciousnesses (not a word!) and when they're all put together, it's very satisfying for us. Same sort of thing as Tolkien, of course he was drawing on Norse mythology, but the same end effect. Being less original somehow made them better, or if not better, more popular.

I still think "The Voyage of the Dawntreader" is one of the best titles ever.

His SF stuff was a total waste of time tho, IMO.

I don't remember any feminist/racist stuff!

The Christian stuff doesn't bother me but, well, I am a Christian so I suppose it wouldn't.

Well, you're right FearfulYank, there wasn't much feminist stuff.

You say feminist like it's a bad thing.

:o I meant misogynistic. Or non-feminist. Sorry, I was trying to type and deal with DS and a not-working-very-well computer at the same time. Feminist is not a bad thing, of course!

I loved them as a child because my big sister read them to me and so it was a special time. She didn't get around to reading The Last Battle to me before she left for university, so I read that on my own and really really disliked it. I was brought up in a religious household and to me most of the allegories are pretty obvious, and I loathed the pretty obvious denigrating of Islam, and the fate of Susan.

Then I re-read them as an adult atheist and found it even more irritating and the sexism and xenophobia really just way too in my face. I still thought I'd read them to my children because they were an important part of my childhood, but just couldn't bring myself to do it. So they had then on tape along with a bit of decoding, not on the religious side, but the 'why do you think he thought girls might be like that' variety. Plus a bit of explanation about Orientalism (poor kids!).

Cripes, that sounds awful! Maybe I should re-read the Last Battle!

I didn't notice the feminism thing particularly. I remember the thing about Susan and thought it was a shame. I didn't even notice the thing about Islam but then I read the last battle a long time ago.

Are you sure the enemy are not just people who do not follow Aslan. Where did Islam come into it.

also Lewis was writing in the late 40's when society was totally different and it was much more of a man's world. I think you have to take this into context.

The Susan thing is so blatant and outrageous that I really can't get past it. She is excluded from "heaven" because she likes lipstick and boys. In other words- sex.

Oh, and don't forget about Aslan not wanting the girls to fight- roles allocated according to gender.

I know people will say "oh, they ar just stories" but where do you think get our view of the world? This aorta of stuff becomes, unless we are very careful, part of our mental furniture- and that of our children.

Okay two things. CS Lewis always said if he had to believe in gods he'd have preferred the Grrek/Roman ones, he started of as an Agnostic/Atheist. Second at the time of writing these books he really didn't know much about women. He was living and working in Oxford, which had few women students and they were shut up in separate colleges. Society was much more misogynistic in those days (I like the way the films have subverted that). I believe he might have written differently after he got married.

YABU

You haven't asked an "Am I Being Unreasonable?" question.

I know Trills, I'm sorry.

I was interested in the discussion and it got no traction at all in Children's books.

I've done exactly what I've criticised others for doing! Suchafuckinghypocrite.

Absolutely, mmmytime. That's why they are so misogynist. But that's no reason we should go on giving our children these outdated subliminal messages.

I really think I might withold them from DS... well, at least not actively offer them to him. If he finds them on his own, fair play and all that.
BUt this is on the grounds of the racism and sexism, not the mythology.

Loved the narnia books, don't remember the moment I noticed the imagery. re-read and re-read them - gorgeous books. Disappointed with the sexism but realise they were a product of their time (and making a very heavy-handed point). In that vein, I remember once reading an Enid Blyton book to the kids and changing the genders as I went along. The kids were like 'wtf??' (not that they actually said f) because it sounded plain weird. Cue lecture on sexism. Sorry, going off the point a bit.

C S Lewis borrowed from a lot of sources in the writing of the Narnia books but I dont agree that they aren't 'suffused with [christian] doctrine': they clearly are. I don't believe that to be malevolent or indoctrinating - C S Lewis was presenting the story, using an allegorical device, to be taken or left, which is a central tenet of the christian faith.

... unlike organised religion, which forces, pushes, punishes. I love the Philip Pullman books, and love the man (not that I know him, just adore his brain) and leap for joy that he is against organised religion, loathes it with a white-hot passion. I would put a large part of the blame for the horrid, often vicious, human-loathing, misunderstanding of the true christian story at organised religion's door. So anyone who strives to pop that influence is ok by me.

pointy - high!

And there are loads of brilliant books for kids- just can't understand why these ones are held in such reverence.I think it's a bit lazy to keep on doling them out- remember when they were written there weren't many books specifically for children. There are loads now, many of them so much better than Narnia!

YABU as you haven't given one example of an atheist who is bothered by the Narnia stories. Straw man?

I'm an atheist and I love the Narnia stories, despite the anachronistic treatment for women. I'd realised that Aslan is proxy for Jesus. But they're wonderful books.

I'm an atheist, and I hate the Narnia books - i felt cheated (after I'd read them as a child) when I found out about it. I had a hyper-Christian friend, and out of respect for her, at her request I read "Mere Christianity", and I found it illogical (especially where he presents logic over faith) and really pretty vile - one of the very, very few books I've deliberately torn up and thrown away.
I loathe CS Lewis, horrid man. I do like his local pub though.

I read (I totally forget where) that he planned the books as a way to make young minds all the more ready to accept the stories of the bible - so the Aslan-slaying aside, it's not surprising that the "allegories" aren't incredibly obvious, I don't think they were meant to be.

Mind you most kids' books are message-heavy, whether the message is Know Your Place or the importance of sharing/being kind/standing up to bullies.

Which is why so many kids love Horrid Henry or Roald Dahl books, for the sheer gleeful anarchy.

They are - it's bloody insufferable.
Thomas the Tank Engine was the worst. Tug yer forelock an' don't get above yerrself, you nasty little oik.
I actually despise (don't laugh) the Bionicles films for their brain-softening, creation-myth peddling shite. But I realise a lot of adults choose to read stuff like this, so hmmm.

It is not the christianity that gets me so much but the view that the telegraph reading, slipper wearing, little wifey in the kitchen, children at boarding school, butter not nasty foreign olive oil is somehow morally better than any other life style.
remember the view of Eustace's parents who were "vegitarians"

also recently re-read the grown up version - out of the silent planet, voyage to venus etc. where the devil figure tries to convince the eve figure to be a feminst. lovely quote from prophet figure "you did not lose obedience (to your husband) through lack of love but love through obedience"

I think the only thing that matters is -does your DC enjoy it? I loathed Thomas the Tank Engine, but DS1 adored them and we read them over and over again-he grew out of them- but I'm glad that I didn't deny him the pleasure because I looked at them from my perception.
Lewis tells a good story.
I agree that DCs love Roald Dahl and Horrid Henry but a lot of MN parents get very sniffy about Horrid Henry! All DCs love 'My Naughty Little Sister' and they really are dated.