Why are so many non-Christians bothered about the (relatively few) borrowings from the Christian myth in the Narnia books?

[BelfastBloke]

Apart from Aslan's resurrection in one book, which is quite heavy-handed, Christian elements don't seem to be that prevalent across the seven books.

Yet many people seem to be deeply suspicious that the Chronicles of Narnia are a form of propaganda which will indoctrinate their kids.



I know that CS Lewis was a part-time Christian evangelist (and full-time Professor of Medieval Lit), but the books themselves don't seem suffused with the doctrines in the way one might expect; and certainly not in the way they're sometimes described.

ive got a massive book with all the stories in it in order and the only one that came across a bit noticeably 'bibley' was the magicians nephew when aslan created the worlds in the ponds and all the animals etc, funnily enough tho as a non religious person, my favourite and by far most memorable part out of all 7 books was that creation [hhmm]

Milly - I haven't either (heard of strict atheist households). I didn't mean it as straw man, rather that surely, if you are so bothered about your child encountering any Christian symbolism, Narnia stories are teh least of your worries as the child won't understand that Narnia has any Christian symbolism unles they've already encountered it in a more obvious medium.

Does that make sense?

I would think TBH that if you read a wide selection of myths, fairytales, some religious some not, you'll find Narnia pretty run-of-the-mill.

i was raised in a religion free household but had enough of a grasp to 'get' that aslan was 'god' even as a small child, same as my dd is raised religion free but knows stories about jesus, so if and when she reads/is read the chronicles she too will pick up the religious undertones im sure.

Re: the reference to Harry Potter, I'd say that those stories derive a lot of their ideas from CS Lewis, and from Tolkein, who was a friend and contemporary

Yes, sorry, Ella. I didn't mean to blame you! I think you mentioned it as a hypothetical situation but it was starting to develop in the thread as some kind of real, actual movement of fundamentalist atheists who were going to lead to the downfall of Western civilisation!

... and from Norse and Celtic and other mythology, which SGB mentions, and which I'm (sadly) not yet educated enough to know about.

I love His Dark Materials, although no 3 goes a bit weird

Yes I was thinking more of the OP than your posts EllaDee.

Grrr I get really annoyed at any suggestion that every story should be transparent in its root and that a story is 'bad' if it has layers that a younger child can't decode.

I was read the Narnia series by my Granny before I could read and I LOVED it on many childhood levels. I read the series at around 8/9 and enjoyed the new imagery of my imagination and the story, there were words in there I didn't understand, and I completely missed any borrowing of biblical influence (heavy heavy influence) but it didn't either convert me to Christianity nor make the story less enjoyable.

I've read the series many times over many years, each time I discover something new, for better or worse. Whether it be religious mirroring, or the general view of women, etc etc., the series is still a GOOD STORY.

If we all wait until we can understand the layers, decode propaganda, have an educated well informed viewpoint, well we kind of miss the point of growing up. Part of being a child is in the acceptance of a good story as a good story, of suspending disbelief and reality, of going with it, living it in the imagination... I think to suggest that children may be in someway harmed by a story that's woven on many levels, then we're not giving them credit where its due, the credit that a child should have, that it doesn't MATTER.

A child will love a story so much they may return to it as an adult with eyes wide open and either part ways with it, or love it more.

Oh, no, it's fine - just thought I would clarify as the phrase was mine!

I'm an atheist with very strong views, but I enjoyed the Narnia stories as a child and see no real harm in them for a child to read as an adventure.

"many people seem to be deeply suspicious that the Chronicles of Narnia are a form of propaganda"

Name one.

I totally loved them as a child, but that was long ago and far away, and I agree they are a bit dated now. However, I'm not convinced that he was anti-girl. For example, Lucy is given a very strong leading role, and Susan is armed with a bow and arrow. The White Witch is a very strong woman - not good, but who said women always have to be good? Mrs Beaver can stand up for herself pretty well too. The storyteller in The Horse and his Boy is female (and the fact that the horse owned the boy rather than the other way round is an interesting exploration of normal expectations). And Jill in The Silver Chair was also a strong character.
I'm going to have to re-read them now.

I have a friend who was brought up by strict athiests. She is 39 and has a very tenuous grasp of any of the symbolism of Christianity, or indeed of quite mainstream stories such as Noah's ark, Adam & Eve etc. She does know about Joseph & the coat of many colours but didn't before seeing the musical.

She has a deep mistrust of all religions and would certainly not seek to learn any more about them for any reason - there is no way that she would have spotted any allegory in the Narnia books (which she read as a child, so I'm guessing - based on what I know of her parents - that her parents didn't realise they were allegorical either).

I don't think her family is representative of athiest households, but she and her sister genuinely do not know anything about religion. I'm not making any judgement on that btw, I'm sure she was brought up knowing lots of other things that I don't.

"Name one."

Philip Pullman

Sorry, I can't spell atheist

Grrr I get really annoyed at any suggestion that every story should be transparent in its root and that a story is 'bad' if it has layers that a younger child can't decode.

i think that learning to 'decode' these things is a fundamental part of our development. So while I agree that a child can and should enjoy a story on its most overt, 'simplistic', level, I don't agree that this is where it ends...I think children will naturally learn the skills of 'decoding'; if they need or receive help from others (parents, teachers, the wider cultural framework), that is great too. And I think a person is missing out and our human culture becoming weaker (sorry, that sounds a bit pompous!) if we as a whole lose interest in the origins (mythological, western, christian, eastern, political, gnostic, whatever!) and layers.

I also don't think any child old enough to read the Narnia stories is too young to begin to understand the symbolism. I was very, very young when I read them and I distinctly remember the moment when it clicked - it was a total revelation - I was sitting on the floor in our flat's front hallway, and suddenly I understood on a core level that a story could be about more than what it purported to be.

I'd certainly try to encourage my kids to see beyond "just a story", not to make it less enjoyable for them, but to make it more enjoyable for them.

Somebody was telling me the other day that he was teaching a group of people (a cultural subject) and none of them knew what alpha and omega referred to. So I can well believe that there are a lot of people who are culturally ignorant, but I think that is a general thing, in much the same way that people don't know who Iris is, or Lamia.

I don't think that is particularly an atheist issue (not that I'm disputing SK's example).

I was raised attending church and sunday school each week (though by parents with 2 different religions). I loved these books from around the age of 7, and didn't really notice any 'christian' stuff in them until I was 14/15 or so.

That said, I am not a Christian now

Ephiny, I'm the OP. I don't think it is a straw man argument - several people I know in RL have said they'd avoid the books because of this, and I'm certain there have been at least two threads on MN in the past where people have dismissed the books as 'Christian claptrap'.

It was one of those threads that made me think about what was in my OP, and when my DD started in on Narnia this week, I finally remembered to post this. I'm not saying it's loads of people, and I'm not saying some of them are not more suspicious of the racism and the sexism, but some of them bound it all together with the Christian themes.

Philip Pullman uses christian mythology in his own books though. I think he has specific issues about the way female sexuality is treated in the Narnia books, and he connects that to Christianity. It is not so much the Christianity that is the issue but some of the ways it is sometimes used in the books.

But no book if perfect.

I find the idea of atheists avoiding their kids learning about religion strange. Imagine getting to adulthood and a friend says "I'm off to church now" and you say "what's a church?"

Of course if I found someone telling my child that they must pray and that jesus made the world I'd have to beat them to death with their own arrogance, but religion exists so is therefore one of many things we need to know about.

YABU

I don't think anyone is really particularly bothered about it. If so people would never read Tolkien, Eliot, Donne etc etc. Literature can be appreciated at many levels and often has hidden layers of meaning/allegory. I don't feel threatened by reading stories originating in Hindu mythology. i've not come across anyone feeling this way tbh

I don't think "many" people are bothered outside the thin ranks of the Professionally Offended.

Indeed, I've heard of people taking offense the other way round, e.g. about the Phillip Pullman books which apparently denigrate religion/Catholicism by means of a thinly-veiled allegory. Not sure if that's true, as I found the first one dull and didn't get past the first few chapters...

There will always be a few people just looking for something to be outraged by!

I do think it's bizarre that people think atheists bring their children up in a sort of cultural vacuum! It's some Christians who ban books and want their children to remain ignorant of great swathes of life. Note- I said some Christians!

If you don't see that the books are a close Christian allegory of both the Gospel and the Acts, with a great deal of stress on the power of redemptive and protective love, then you have nothing to consider here. Either with Narnia, or with Harry Potter.

If you do see this rich symbolism, then it can be appreciated as an additional layer of eithe cultural or religious significance, as suits your own world picture.

But I think it's a little unfortunate to say that the symbolism is neither there nor that it is not persuasive.

I read Phillip Pullman more as a warning about the dangers of organised religion, rather than a commentary on faith. Narnia and HP are the flip side of this - they are about faith without organisational structures.