about SIL and DS1's Bris (circumcision) ?

[imlikeaironingboard]

I'm Jewish (Liberal) and DH counts himself as secular Jewish (as does all of his family).
His DBro (my BIL) married out - not a 'big' thing with them due to the whole non practicing/secular thing.

I'm due to give birth to DS1 (DC2) in a week.

They do not have children and it is only DH and BIL as siblings. our DC1 is a DD.

Both DH and BIL are circumcised.

She told us tonight that she would not be coming to DS1 Bris. The idea of doing that 'disgusts' her.

AIBU to be really upset and to think that she should have realised that marrying into a jewish family secular or not would mean that these sort of things would happen?

This has really really upset me - I have never got a hint of her feeling like this before.

quietlyafraid What about those who believe in child sacrafice in the name of religion? Or beating daemons out of their children?

I am a secular Jew , with a Jewish mother, from a Jewish family and I am really sorry but in my heart of hearts , I side more with your SIL's view than yours. If I had been talking to you, I would not have used that language as it is insensitive and unnecessary. I would have said it made me very uncomfortable but actually what I felt would probably have been similar.

I wonder if she felt the need to use the language she did as a marker for what will happen with her own children, if she has any.

I always think that political correctness has equipped us with a way to respect each other's views, to live side by side without conflict and not cause offence to one another.

But I guess we need to remember that it is really just a veil of manners: unfortunately the religious and non religious hold diametically opposing views of the world. And at various points, this will break through.

Annie That is just awful and it makes me want to cry :(

Like other on this thread I have had the misfortune of watching my newborn having necessary medical procedures, it's hideous seeing your child in pain :(

I can't understand the mindset of a mother who would willingly do that.

Annie I feel sorry for your friend that she is now haunted for the rest of her life.

I feel that it is not really unfair to the newborn who can not give consent, I also feel for the mothers who have to go through with this (although they do have a choice to say no, they're are put under immense pressure) 8 days after given birth.

I have attended a Bris (I will never ever do it again and I would never have any of my sons circumcised) and I actually felt sorry for the mother as she went very pale and was visibly shaken.

Quietly, you say it's a bit of both, but actually in your post I just see reasons based on pragmatism. And I think that's sensible. I was raised in a religious family myself, actually. That hasn't precluded me from understanding that people who say God tells them to do something may need to be actively stopped, never mind just called disgusting. I don't need to mention how many serial killers have said God told them to, do I? (and will state once again that mass murder is clearly much worse than mutilation).

It's not true that the women who've had their children cut share the same views on child abuse as others. Clearly, there is disagreement as to whether painful, medically unnecessary, non-consensual removal of part of the genitals is abuse or not. I assume nobody would do it if they thought it were abusive, though am ready to be corrected on that. I do wonder what the pro-circ people would think of removing part of a baby's body, painfully and irreversibly, in any other circumstances. That is, if they didn't think God had told them to.

Why spare us the details Annie? If a parent can't deal with what really happens, they are cowards.
It's horrible to watch your newborn have the heelprick test, they scream for that and it lasts mere milliseconds, ditto with vaccinations, you do it because it's vital for their health - circumcision isn't.

That is a punch that is Annie. So, so sad. I could never do it. Your poor friend and baby.

"What about those who believe in child sacrafice in the name of religion? Or beating daemons out of their children?"

They break the law in this country and do not have the same level of deeply entrenched support and belief that circumcism has. Its a little bit of an unfair comparison. They are not part of the three major religions and practised by a small (but still too big) number of people.

And sadly in parts of the world, even where it still breaks the law, its still going on. Why? Its not being dealt with by authorities there because, again, it has the support and belief aspect connected to it. Its just underground.

Its a process of slow education and respecting spiritual beliefs throughout the culture to change the bits that are abhorrent to us and harmful to children.

I can't offer a more politically correct answer than that. Its an awful and heartbreaking truth. The world isn't perfect. 'The God Factor' is something that I find truly terrifying.

YABU - your SIL obviously feels strongly about this and felt the need to be honest as to why she would not attend. She could have worded it more sensitively, but maybe she felt this was a subject on which she had to be plain. In families, sometimes you have to agree to disagree. My SIL smoked while pregnant - I said something as I felt I should, she listened and politely ignored me - we get on fine.

I have to say, I had to look up "Bris", and I actually feel sick. The thought of ritualistically hurting a newborn is disgusting. I agree with your SIL. As PP have stated, in times to come (soon, I hope) ritual circumsision will surely be made illegal. Imho, invasive procedures should be carried out in a medical environmnet, by medically trained staff, with anaesthesia and for a clinically indicated reason.

I can kind of understand SamG, if she wants to stay in her community she has no choice but to circumcise her son. However by questioning her reasons I would hope that she at least will not shun someone from her community who made a decision against circumcision. Discussions like this can make people realise there are other options.

Fatlazymummy, what is wrong or right is often in the eyes of the believer. Just because the SIL may have felt she had to make her statement as unequivocal as possible doesn't mean she was justified in doing so. Maybe she feels her mission in life is to rail against circumcision. Is her belief sacrosanct? If so, why not the belief of others?

Religious practices shouldn't be called disgusting by people who find them disgusting or by people who find all religion ridiculous. Not because religion is above comment in and of itself but because it is rude and uncivil to make statements like that no matter how strongly you feel.

Purely from the pov of politeness and consideration for others, the SIL's opinion of circumcision was not invited in the first place. She should not have assumed the OP wanted to hear it but she could have assumed from the invitation to the bris that the mother found it an acceptable practice. She decided to pick a fight with a new mother because she thought her opinion was more important than the family occasion, the peace of mind of a new mother, the relationship between the brothers who will not now be kvetterin -- all of which are major instances of bad manners and lack of consideration for others. The excuse being made for her here is that she was right in her opinion. Sometimes it is better to be kind than to be right. (Not that I think she was right, however.)

I don't think it's necessary to bring serial killers on a mission from god into things as a comparison with people's religion-based practices.

Babies have survived without the heelprick test, surely? And same goes for vaccinations? (Sorry to being them up again)

quietlyafraid I was going to ask you the same question about child sacrifice etc. I see you have tried to give a thoughtful reply, but does that really answer it?

By your earlier statement we cannot call that kind of abuse disgusting because it's religious. If someone invites me to watch them pour acid on their child I must not be rude about it right? (that is one of the things they do to treat devil-worship)

You can't say "oh but only the religions I like" now can you.

why can't I call a disgusting practice disgusting just because someone tries to justify it with what their imaginary friend allegedly said? FGM is justified by religion, it's still disgusting.

Same reason you can't turn up your nose and say "Yes it makes your bum look humongous" or "What a horrible name you called your baby".

hazlenutt I think FGM is more of a cultural than a religious practice TBH.

Math,

To be fair SIL was asked to be an active participant in the ceremony namely as the kvatterin, the woman honored with taking the baby boy from his mother and bringing him to the circumcision room, where she hands him to the kvatter (usually her husband). So if you feel very uncomfortable with the whole thing and are then asked to be an active participant, I can understand why she used the word disgusting as it is a very emotive subject.

The poor SIL was confronted with the assumption that this was considered perfectly acceptable and was perhaps confronted with the idea that this was to be expected of her with her own future sons.

Yes you can say it makes your bum look humongous if you are asked and if it does. Why ask if you don't want to know the answer? [I agree about the baby name but then I would never ask the question]

see, I think that hurting someone's feelings becaus of their big bum and actually mutilating children, performing surgeries without any medical reason and pain relief, are slightly different.

and true, FGM is mostly cultural, but in many countries religious leaders are the ones defending it claiming it's god's will.

Math how do you feel about the people who poured acid on kids in the name of religion? Okay by you yes? wouldn't do to be rude right? You'd watch and say "nice weather we're having" in the name of politeness?

Annie thats horrific. I too want to cry now. or go and wake up ds and hug his little perfect body

I don't know how you can marry a Jewish man and never have the issue of circumcision come up until you have a nephew. I can't imagine a person in that circumstance not thinking about the possibility until faced with a live baby boy. I also think it likely that she made her feelings known without understanding her role in the bris ceremony, if the whole thing came as such a surprise to her.

The SIL was not asked her opinion of the bris. She volunteered it, and she had a number of alternative ways to decline the invitation that didn't involve needless hurt to the parents of the baby.

It's the assumption that someone wants to hear your opinion of their bum and the assumption that someone wants to hear your opinion of their religious practice that is being compared, not the hurt of being told your bum is fat and the pain of circumcision.

I'd like to know those of you who are health professionals, what you would do if a mother came to you and mentioned she'd had her son circumcised. This is for all the doctors, midwives, health visitors, nurses and social workers. What would you say to her as a professional? Would she hear how she's a barbaric cow and what she's done to her son is disgusting? Or would you make a sour face at her and try to make her feel bad? Tell me how you'd react TO HER FACE.

Following from Annie's post the babies that "don't even cry" are apparently in a more potentially dangerous situation as they have gone into a state of shock. Yet some choose to interpret (justify) this as "it didn't hurt him".

It is so very risky. It must go against every maternal instinct to have this done to your baby.

The mind boggles.

If it was against the law then I would definitely have reported them, Onagar, and would have taken steps to prevent them carrying out the practice. I suspect it would be against the law no matter where it happened.

If you and your wife/partner/female relative (assuming you have one) were in Saudi Arabia would you advise her to cover her head? Or would you encourage her to leave her head bare?

mrBloomsNursery I used to be a nurse so can answer this as I would have reacted.
I would react totally professionally and politely, as I would to any other patient or patient of relative. Why on earth wouldn't I? A health professional is there to do their job, not express their personal opinion. In fact I came across many people that I didn't agree with or like for some reason, so what? I was there to nurse not like people or agree with their lifestyle or their decisions.
In fact I actually find your question a little bit bizarre, I'm not sure of your reasoning for asking it?